Is this "cheese"?

tinkthank · #1 September 18th, 2004, 07:16 PM

I honestly dont know. Never seen it in MP, but the AI does it against me (probably accidentaly). But since I have since the AI do it, and it working quite effectively, I thought I'd ask here whether this is "cheese" and hence something to be frowned upon in MP.
(By "cheese" I mean "exploiting" a suboptimal feature of the game mechanics so as to maximize effect otherwise unobtainable had the game mechanics been done differently.)

There is a big enemy Army in province X, bordering your army in Province Y. You basically know by scouting and other means what is in it. You know that the army in X has a few decent mages with nicely scripted support spells, such as flaming arrows + wind guide + arrow fend, plus a few "gem carriers" -- that is, they have an army set up like I set up mine: My support mages have enough gems to cast what they should, but not more (or too much more), so that they can continue to do their current job in subsequent turns by not wasting ALL those gems but rather by getting refills from scouts carrying the gem ammo.
Either you think they are going to move into Y, or you want to move into X; lets just say the latter. So you issue the appropriate orders -- PLUS you send one (or more) waves of magical attacks beforehand, such as Ghost Riders, Imprint Souls, or those other necromancy ones, whatever. You do this only because (and here is what I suspect could be cheese) those mages MAY (and quite often DO) use up just the gems they will need to cast those winning spells. Then, the regular battles take place, and your army beats theirs, which you couldnt have done had they had the gems.
Like I said, I only noticed this because the AI did it against me (by accident, surely), leaving my beautifully scripted mages useless. (Of course, I could leave lots of gems on those mages, but we all know what happens then, especially in larger battles.)
Is this cheese?
your honest opinion appreciated.

Zen · #2 September 18th, 2004, 07:21 PM

This used to be considered a high level of cheese (In Dom1), because the AI wasn't smart enough to have a threshold of gem usage (as it does now, sometimes to people's displeasure).

While it certainly is something you will find in every game with competant opponents, I don't consider it cheese in any way.

More often than not, if you are going to have certain mages casting certain types of needed spells (Flaming Arrows, Wind Guide, Wrath, etc), it is best to make sure you find a happy medium of gems to be 'wasted' on such tactics.

Ozymandias · #3 September 18th, 2004, 07:21 PM

I think not. I think the interplay between magic movement actions and normal movement actions deepens the later game.

tinkthank · #4 September 18th, 2004, 07:25 PM

Hey, thanks. OK, live and learn!

Arryn · #5 September 18th, 2004, 07:29 PM

Quote:

tinkthank said:
Hey, thanks. OK, live and learn!

I'd rather you die, quickly and horribly. Learning is optional, and not recommended.

War isn't fair, and after all, there can be only ONE.

Alneyan · #6 September 18th, 2004, 07:34 PM

Why should you want someone to die quickly? I humbly question the wisdom of such a choice Arryn. It seems like an awful waste to me if you happen to be the one killing. I mean, there is so much you could do in this moment between life and death, so I fail to see the point of rushing in this case.

*Casts Quickness and runs away very quickly, just in case* Better safe than worry, and so on.

Arryn · #7 September 18th, 2004, 07:45 PM

Quote:

Alneyan said:
Why should you want someone to die quickly? I humbly question the wisdom of such a choice Arryn. It seems like an awful waste to me if you happen to be the one killing. I mean, there is so much you could do in this moment between life and death, so I fail to see the point of rushing in this case.

Because I have other matters to attend to. Why waste time gloating, er, savoring the victory? There'll be time enough for all that once one reigns supreme ...

Thufir · #8 September 18th, 2004, 07:24 PM

Personally, i think this is legitimate. Feints are a quite time honored part of the tactical tool box for commanders from time immemorial.

Now in Dom3+ better scripting control would be helpful to allow the player to have better control over gem use, but I think it's tricky to allow that, without letting MM get out of hand.

Arryn · #9 September 18th, 2004, 07:24 PM

It isn't cheese. It's a valid play tactic. I've been using it for months. It forces humans to rely less on gems and more on zero-cost spells. It is, however, an outright exploit against AIs, since they aren't as adaptable as humans, and thus won't change tactics in mid-game to counter you.