88 antitank, antiaircraft and artillery?

[Roman]

When I have played Germany the flak 88 works as anti-tank , but I think he is not working as flak. I'll try again to see if I'm wrong.
I have heard that this gun was also used as field artillery.
If so, no way to be used for bombing?
Yet I know that his best performance was as a anti-tank. In the rest was poor.

[Mobhack]

Originally Posted by Roman

When I have played Germany the flak 88 works as anti-tank , but I think he is not working as flak. I'll try again to see if I'm wrong.
I have heard that this gun was also used as field artillery.
If so, no way to be used for bombing?
Yet I know that his best performance was as a anti-tank. In the rest was poor.

The 88mm in the game is being used as an anti-tank gun. When this was done, they were usually stripped of all the barrage directors and so on, and were deployed individually in A/T positions to engage tanks, not deployed as a centralised battery, grouped round an AAA predictor and connected up with cables etc.

There is absolutely no point in any sort of AAA version, since it was used for barrage fire at level bombers at medium to high altitudes. Attack planes are down low, where the lighter flack is required to deal with them. The 88 does not do that since it cannot track fast targets.

Wasting a unit class as "heavy flak" which could only fire at level bombers would be a total waste of time. How often does your PBEM opponent use level bombers on you?. (The AI does not use the class, which was really only created for scenario designers to write Normandy Breakout type scenarios with).

Andy

[Roman]

Ok. Thanks for the reply.

[manteuffel]

Funny that you bring that up. I noticed that the 88 was used quite frequently as artillery by the Germans but I'm sure it was in a different configuration. I think one example of the 88 being used as artillery that comes to mind is during the shelling of the encircled 101st airborne division.

Here is an interesting documentary about the 88
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1C7Hl28MHio

[Mobhack]

Adding such would simply add another unit to an already crowded OOB. But they would cost about the same as a 105mm battery, so 99% of players would pay the few points more for the greater shell size.

The British in Burma tended to use the 3.7 inch batteries as long range arty as well, due to lack of trade in the AA role. But adding a "3.7 used as arty" battery would also clutter a crowded OOB, and be of the same effect as the existing 25 pounder battery really.

What can't be modelled in the game (for off map units) is the extremely flat trajectory of such high velocity AAA guns. They basically could only fire at hill-tops and other such LOS targets visible from the rear areas. So best ignored, or simply buy some on-map 88s and snipe from the rear areas at what you can see with direct HE especially if playing a larger map. (And if you are going to spend those points - then why not just buy a 105mm, again? - at least it can fire indirect, as well as having a bigger bang).

Cheers
Andy

[RecruitMonty]

Thanks for the detailed response Andy.

I happened upon this post after reading the one on the MBT forum about the Patriot Missiles. As far as I know in MBT this type of AA asset gets more use. Now, from what I read there, I understood that it has a similar role to what an 8,8cm gun would have in WW2 if it were implemented. I was wondering if it would be possible to develop the 8,8 etc as AAA for MBT in the OOB mod I am working on. If so, then what class of unit should I put them under in your opinion? Any thought would be appreciated.

[Mobhack]

Every now and then some bright spark comes along asking why these "AA guns" don't shoot at random planes, and I answer them.

So please search the forums and you will see the various responses.

But (ho hum, here we go yet again) - for a brief over view, one last time - later responses will be along the lines of "search the **g forum posts"

- 88mm and others used special AA predictors and fired in barrage mode at medium and high level bomber formations. These predictors were not mounted on the guns. The predictor connected up to the guns with cables, so the guns required to be within a few metres of the predictor equipment.

- The medium AA guns do not have individual AA sights! (unlike 20mm etc). (The 3.7 inch had absolutely no sights other than the pointer dials 2 different gun numbers used to follow the predictor input. I have seen a picture of a detached 3.7 at Tobruk with a simple lash-up sight ring brazed onto the gun tube)

- 88mm guns in the game are distributed as anti tank guns dotted about the countryside. The AAA predictor is nowhere nearby, it would be useless in the ATG role, and would not have miles of cable to connect to the medium AA which are sited for AT work, not out in the open in a gun line as for AAA. The sights and fire control on the in-game guns are the direct fire telescope for firing at ground targets, and not what any AAA predictor model would be (rather lower stats - area flak is not very accurate). Dual sights are not an option in SP, so these anti-air 88s would be less use than the ATG model in game terms, for plinking at tanks. And would have little Ap ammo, anyway.

- Medium AAA did not fire at low level strike aircraft. They simply could not follow such high tracking rate targets. GE 88mm battalions often had 20mm AAA attached to protect them from low fliers...

I have seen both the 88 and the 3.7 inch at IWM Duxford, they are displayed near each other. Even if the 88 is a 'little baby' beside the hugeness of the 3.7, it is still a lumbering great thing. Bigger than a 25 pounder field gun. Manual traverse just would not allow following a strafer, though it was enough to follow lumbering high level bombers. (The USA 75mm powered traverse Skysweeper http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Skysweeper was an over-complex approach to medium AAA in the jet age in the 50s. It failed).

- Apart from the level bomber class, all SP planes are low level strafing 'Jabos'...

So, what use is a gun that will only be able to fire at the one-pass level bomber class, and otherwise be less accurate for engaging ground targets, especially in an OOB that is completely crowded already?.

And of course, if we did this for the Germans, then everyone else would wail that OMG they needed their 3.7 or 85mm medium AAA pieces. Because wargamers are like that, especially the rivet counter types.

And after al the work of shoehorning in a medium AAA class, then they would be used about as often as the level bomber class - the only thing they are useful for shooting at. In other words, slightly above nil usefulness.

However, every 6 months or so, a bright spark will have the wonderful 'new' idea of introducing 88mm AAA guns to the game.

For recursion, see recursion.

Andy

[PvtJoker]

Originally Posted by Mobhack

Every now and then some bright spark comes along asking why these "AA guns" don't shoot at random planes, and I answer them.

- 88mm and others used special AA predictors and fired in barrage mode at medium and high level bomber formations. These predictors were not mounted on the guns. The predictor connected up to the guns with cables, so the guns required to be within a few metres of the predictor equipment.

- The medium AA guns do not have individual AA sights! (unlike 20mm etc). (The 3.7 inch had absolutely no sights other than the pointer dials 2 different gun numbers used to follow the predictor input. I have seen a picture of a detached 3.7 at Tobruk with a simple lash-up sight ring brazed onto the gun tube)

- Medium AAA did not fire at low level strike aircraft. They simply could not follow such high tracking rate targets. GE 88mm battalions often had 20mm AAA attached to protect them from low fliers...

Andy

Since I know how much you like me questioning your decisions, I will provide this as a "food for thought" and for historical accuracy, rather than as feature request:

The ability of any AA gun to track the targets horizontally and vertically depends on the angular velocity of the target. If the speed of the target remains the same, its angular velocity will diminish as range from the gun increases. So, the notion that medium AAA did not fire at fighter-bombers is not the whole truth. They would fire at them if the altitude of the aircraft and terrain permitted acquiring them as targets early enough, for example in North Africa, or if the director was placed on high enough above the surrounding terrain that it could see the targets from several kilometers away, and naturally if the aircraft were approaching at medium altitude as was sometimes done to avoid the more lethal low altitude AAA.

It is also worth to mention that at least the Germans provided the 88mm guns a lighter portable backup director for rapid tactical deployment (Kommandohilfsgerät 35), which did not require any other electrical cabling between the director and the guns than a simple field telephone. Deploying a battery could be done quite fast in this configuration, although naturally accuracy was not as good as with the heavier central directors (Kommandogerät 36 & 40), which were always used if time permitted and they were available.

So, if we just as thought experiment think how medium-heavy AAA could be implemented in the game: it should be available in minimum one battery (usually 4 guns) formations to discourage buying single guns for AA and it should have very long minimum range against aerial targets (or all targets if minimum range against aircraft can't be set separately); something like 2,000 to 3,000 meters so that they can't shoot at fast moving fighter-bombers at short ranges.

Of course this would not be "perfect", because it would also limit the range against level bombers and there probably is not any way to account for terrain blocking the LOS against low level attackers. On the plus side it would make medium AAA somewhat useful against fighter-bombers (which they historically could be depending on the situation as described above) and provide something to shoot with at level bombers, which currently are the only "untouchable" targets in the game.

[RecruitMonty]

Right, well, I wasn't asking anyone here to do it for me but never mind. I was simply wondering how I would go about doing something similar to the Patriot for MBT with larger Flak in fixed positions for a fortified line in a series of scenarios that I will be working on for my "das Reich" mod. It is therefore not for the vanilla game.

In this set of scenarios large numbers of "level bombers" will be used by the enemy and I was interested in providing both missile and gun defenses to deal with a portion of these. Lighter AA like 20mm and 37mm will not really fulfill that role for the level bombers. In MBT there is more scope and the OOBs are less crowded so I will be implementing something like this if I can. All I needed was a suggestion from you regarding which unit classes to look at in the new MBT OOBs. It has been a while since I did OOB work as I have spent more time making new icons but I guess I'll just figure it out myself.

As it is I have read the previous posts, agree wholeheartedly and therfore have no desire to see any 88 etc added to either WW2 or MBT in an AAA role. I was merely asking for some advice on my own OOB work.

[Mobhack]

Heavy SAM can reach level bombers in MBT. This is the WW2 forum, however, and the class is not implemented here.

If your mod is using MBT as a base - then please ask about things in the MBT forum, or it gets confusing.

Andy