Tactics, Time and Steel Panthers

[lansoar]

hello,

I've been a lifelong player of SP, from all the way back to 1995, playing the original item thru SPWAW thru Cameo Workshop's WinSPWW2 and MBT.

despite this, i still consider myself a bit of a neophyte at tactics. I've given it thought over the years, and besides mainly playing against the AI thru the decades as a prime disadvantage, I've considered other reasons by which victory often eludes me. (i've at least gotten proficient enough to usually get a draw if nothing else, with a sprinkling of Marginal Victories in the more difficult scenarios and the occasional decisive outcome)

One major improvement i've always attested to Cameo Workshop/Shrapnel Games was modifying/creating scenerios with a much greater time limit. I always found it ironic to be told in the original game manual that "Steel Panthers rewards Combined Arms Tactics." Yet often many of the older version scenarios had scenario time limits so extreme that only by charging head on could on have a chance of achieving victory. Makes using CA tactics rather moot if you can't organize your offense in time to the scenario.

This led, to thoughts about "gaming tactics", i.e. unrealistic tactics that maximize game/scenerio loopholes, regardless whether or not its realistic or not. An example that comes to mind would be skimming the boundries of the map in concentrated groups, bypassing the primary defense of the opposition.

I could go on, but the thing i really want to ask is other HUMANS who play this game and i'll use a specific scenario for a a common reference point.

I recently played scenerio 308: Battle of Lemburg 12/44. (USA Advance vs German Delay)

Initially i played USA as recommended. I found it challenging just to get into the village proper much less the outskirt objectives without suffering heavy losses vis-a-vis motor/armored transport vs small teams of AT squads along with well positioned AFV's and ATs

I then replayed it as Germany. Less insightful in terms of AFVs as basically the AI just advances making it fairly easy to wipe out the armored component. However the AI is much better at Arty....(at least vs Static positions) and it got the INF component more quickly engaged than i did which provided a challenge making me realize how outnumbered i was in bodies, at least within the village.

I'm looking for insights from human players on how they'd approach this kind of scenerio, the tactics used etc. I'm a guy who despite so many years playing this game needs some pointers along with wondering whether or not such scenarios can be beaten with real life tactics. One thing i've identified in my own tactics is a tendency to be conservative.....to not want to risk losses and thus i get bogged down pretty easily. (aka i treat the scenario as real life....vs a game of numbers so i'm always trying to minimize casualties. Points wise it can be significant in many cases as too heavy a cost will usually lead to at best a "marginal victory")

Happy Holidays to all.

[Suhiir]

About the only thing I've figured out with those short time limit scenarios is smoke and mass, to reduce the number of times they can shoot at you while you advance and once you get close have enough units you can thin them out quickly.

[DRG]

Originally Posted by Suhiir

About the only thing I've figured out with those short time limit scenarios is smoke and mass, to reduce the number of times they can shoot at you while you advance and once you get close have enough units you can thin them out quickly.

308: Battle of Lemburg 12/44 has 32 turns and that is not exactly a short time limit scenario. When I read that I expected to see something with half as many turns as it does have.

However,if you want more time it's easy to do with the scenario editor then save it for your own use in save slot 1308

That said, smoke is your friend as is the proper application of HE with your artillery

[lansoar]

Originally Posted by DRG

308: Battle of Lemburg 12/44 has 32 turns and that is not exactly a short time limit scenario. When I read that I expected to see something with half as many turns as it does have.

However,if you want more time it's easy to do with the scenario editor then save it for your own use in save slot 1308

That said, smoke is your friend as is the proper application of HE with your artillery

Exactly. I cannot use scenario length as an excuse in this case. Thus, i'm looking for player advice from those who have also played this scenario, and similar types. lol.....i just don't seem to have the victory gene. I get bogged down, and in many cases, i get my *** kicked...especially in a late war scenario like this where you have small INF AT teams. oi. What a headache.

Hence i'm looking to more experienced and/or savvy SP players who can take a scenerio like this and formulate a strategy for victory. I must admit, I lack the Patton element. It would be so instructional if a game could be recorded to demonstrate to others how its done. a Replay of turns in sequence where an expert shows how to do it.

[zovs66]

Sometimes (a lot of times) in the real world you don't have the luxury of time to get things done. So that is one reason a scenario developer may have made the turns a certain length.

[Mobhack]

Well, as suggsted - if you are a slow" player then simply extending time available may well do it for you- in either or both of maneuvering to the approach and also in preparing the contact line with your arty assets. If your mortars are getting depleted in ammo wih these extra turns - then try adding a few ammo carriers perhaps.

Another thought might be to reduce visibility a bit so you are onto the defenders with less fire recieved?.

Also with regard to your arty preparation - deliberately use a few (60mm say) mortars deeper into the enemy predicted formation as "what the british termed "pepperpot" fires - to keep retiring troops heads down and encourage them to run away. Move the pepper dispensers about as its suppression not killing you want. US 60mm has a useful range, ~2km, not the 1000m of some WW2 50mm's. Useful to bring forward on a truck, unload some bombs and get clear before return fires fall onto them.

Welcome to the art of scenario editing!

[Suhiir]

Originally Posted by Mobhack

Also with regard to your arty preparation - deliberately use a few (60mm say) mortars deeper into the enemy predicted formation as "what the british termed "pepperpot" fires - to keep retiring troops heads down and encourage them to run away. Move the pepper dispensers about as its suppression not killing you want. US 60mm has a useful range, ~2km, not the 1000m of some WW2 50mm's. Useful to bring forward on a truck, unload some bombs and get clear before return fires fall onto them.

Welcome to the art of scenario editing!

Also the 60mm mortar is really only good for suppression not killing. Also the AI will frequently attempt counter-battery on them so even if they don't hit a thing they reduce the AIs indirect fire on stuff you'd rather they didn't fire at.

[Mobhack]

Originally Posted by Suhiir

Also the 60mm mortar is really only good for suppression not killing. Also the AI will frequently attempt counter-battery on them so even if they don't hit a thing they reduce the AIs indirect fire on stuff you'd rather they didn't fire at.

They have 3 tubes, not the 2 of the 81mm section and so deliver a nice set of bangs. But really only useful for firing through the cris period of the break-in and not bothering to resupply with reload units. Use the available bombs for the one phase of battle, provide a ride to scoot to and away. The extra 1000m range is what elevates them over 50mm pill throwers like Soviet and GE 50mms. A nice to have thing, not vital. Maybe actually a useful boost if you are defending against a Japanese attack though where they are exposed in the open and hence solving your range problem for you, and you have FDF gold spots placed out. Yep, in the defensive case the USA 60mm mortar could be a lawnmower.

[Suhiir]

[quote=Mobhack;855841]

Originally Posted by Suhiir

They have 3 tubes, not the 2 of the 81mm section and so deliver a nice set of bangs. But really only useful for firing through the cris period of the break-in and not bothering to resupply with reload units. Use the available bombs for the one phase of battle, provide a ride to scoot to and away. The extra 1000m range is what elevates them over 50mm pill throwers like Soviet and GE 50mms. A nice to have thing, not vital. Maybe actually a useful boost if you are defending against a Japanese attack though where they are exposed in the open and hence solving your range problem for you, and you have FDF gold spots placed out. Yep, in the defensive case the USA 60mm mortar could be a lawnmower.

One thing I've found 60mm mortars to be VERY useful for is to drop them on OPFOR units in near contact with your own. Since they tend to suppress rather then kill and fire at the end of the OPFORs turn when your turn starts you can rally any of your unit that were suppressed and have a distinct advantage when you fire on/assault the OPFOR.

[lansoar]

Originally Posted by Mobhack

Well, as suggsted - if you are a slow" player then simply extending time available may well do it for you- in either or both of maneuvering to the approach and also in preparing the contact line with your arty assets. If your mortars are getting depleted in ammo wih these extra turns - then try adding a few ammo carriers perhaps.

Another thought might be to reduce visibility a bit so you are onto the defenders with less fire recieved?.

Also with regard to your arty preparation - deliberately use a few (60mm say) mortars deeper into the enemy predicted formation as "what the british termed "pepperpot" fires - to keep retiring troops heads down and encourage them to run away. Move the pepper dispensers about as its suppression not killing you want. US 60mm has a useful range, ~2km, not the 1000m of some WW2 50mm's. Useful to bring forward on a truck, unload some bombs and get clear before return fires fall onto them.

Welcome to the art of scenario editing!

Thanks. all good advice. In this scenario i ran into several issues:

1) distance to cover
2) close quarters fighting.
3) artillery delay


in regards to 2), even with a good smoke screen or bombardment.....it would need to be precise to suppress the fairly numerous AT INF units entrenched. I did find myself getting tunnel visioned on the several AFV's well placed. In the end it was the INF units that made life hell...as it should be in a city/town/village environment. I did think about my arty at that point which leads to the below:

in regards to 3), its tough to work around the artillery delays. Even when using FO units. The average delay can go from 2.5 - 3.5 turns. Even in a 30 - 35+ or larger scenario thats a significant slice of time. While the average WinSP scenerio allows a much greater time span than the classic game, it can be hard. Thus i keep thinking there's some secret sauce that i'm failing to pick up on.

Some advice on how to better employ arty would be welcome. Despite all the years i've played the game i actually think the AI deploys arty better than me save for it's tendency to hit where unit's "were" vs. where they are.

replaying the game as German also was enlightening in that the AI managed to get it's INF units closer to the action far faster than i did.