First Non-Pretender SC

[sushiboat]

In my current SP game as Pangaea, things are looking good. However, one thing I haven't done yet (as I get close to Turn 90) is field a non-pretender SC. I may not need a SC for this game, but for more challenging opponents, no SC could be a major weakness.

1. For one or two of your favorite nations (and assuming standard MP settings), what timetable do you have for fielding your first non-pretender SC? What do you do in terms of research, forging, recruiting, etc., to make it possible? What other goals (besides the SC) are you balancing?

2. How/when/where are you deploying your non-pretender SC? Mainly inside your dominion or anywhere? Against hordes of enemy troops or medium-sized armies? What do you steer clear of?

3. What tactics does your non-pretender SC use? Buff and charge? Whole battlefield spells? Drain Life spell/item?

4. What is the life expectancy of your first non-pretender SC? What is the next SC you work on building?

Thanks!

[Tuidjy]

1. With Caelum/Vanheim, I have one or two Air Queens around turn twenty. They
get a wraith sword and a pendant of luck for sure, and a Jade armour, amulet of
anti-magic, astral cap depending on whom I am fighting and what gem income I
have. By the way, if I have Air Queens, I am fighting someone :-) I do not
believe in being at peace when you are prepared for war.

- With Pythium, I do not always use SCs. I have won two or three games where
the only SCs I had were GoF former enemy SCs. Pythium could get an Air Queen
just as easily as any Air nation, but my research priorities are different.

- With C'tis, I do not bother with SCs until late game - about turn 40. I go
for Tartarians. I rely on Drain life/Raise skeleton before that.

2. I deploy them against whatever my enemy uses. I very seldom care about whose
domain I'm fighting in, with SCs. I avoid facing other SCs or mage teams,
unless I have a clear advantage. These I take out with mage teams of my own.
As for armies, big or small, it is all the same. SCs kill armies, that's part of
the definition of SC.

3. Buffs and a lifedrain weapon are a must; even Soul Vortex is only an added
buff, not a substitute for a lifedrain weapon. The only time I do not charge is
when the enemy has a critical mass of D4 mages. Sometimes, I throw wrathful
skies as well, but that's only in special cases... yes, like D4 mages.

4. I consider losing a SC a serious screw-up. In my last five games it has
happened three times. Once in a winner-takes-all battle against a superbly
equiped Vanheim horde, once to a teleport attack from a backstabbing ally, and
once through sheer stupidity - I bought province defense, and then changed my
mind and told the SC to search for sites. I lost a D3W2E2 Tartarian with two
artifacts to a few barbarians, because there was nowhere to retreat. [Edit]
Make that four. I lost a partially equipped Water Queen to Atlantis, but that
was a feint to draw his main army in the open. On the next turn, I teleported
a mage team on top of his army, and mind enslaved, among others, four mages, a
Water queen, and the enemy prophet.

As for the next SC? If I have the Chalice, I will crank out tartarians, and
gift of reason the good ones. I will keep summoning Air Queens until they run
out. Once I start wishing, I will go for Air Queens, Natajara, and Princes of
Death... but that has happened only once, because I usually play Pythium and
Vanheim, and these two nations have no problems putting together mage teams that
can destroy any Scs who enter the magic phase in the open.

Although I most certainly use SCs a lot, I tend to prefer task force made of
Air or Astral mages. Of course, when these mages happen to be fully equiped
Tartarian Titans or Cyclopses, I don't complain :-)

[Boron]

Tuidjy said:
Once I start wishing, I will go for Air Queens, Natajara, and Princes of
Death... but that has happened only once, because I usually play Pythium and
Vanheim, and these two nations have no problems putting together mage teams that
can destroy any Scs who enter the magic phase in the open.

What do you think of Ettin Mandragoras ? I find them almost better then a Nataraja , at least when you have a good bless .

[Tuidjy]

The Ettin Mandragoras are great, but when you are wishing you can afford to
get exactly what you want. Usually, the Ettin is quite a bit better than
the Natajara. But I wish for a Natajara only in a few very specific cases:
whenever I need a really tough meat shield that I can render nigh invulnerable
to as much as possible.

The Ettin is an undead and a construct. Both of these are vulnerabilities that
a good opponent will exploit.

[TheBirthdayParty]

WHAT IS AN SC?

[quantum_mechani]

TheBirthdayParty said:
WHAT IS AN SC?

Super Combatant

Usually it means a commander that is almost immposible to harm with normal troops (due to items, or spells cast).

[Boron]

Tuidjy said:
The Ettin Mandragoras are great, but when you are wishing you can afford to
get exactly what you want. Usually, the Ettin is quite a bit better than
the Natajara. But I wish for a Natajara only in a few very specific cases:
whenever I need a really tough meat shield that I can render nigh invulnerable
to as much as possible.

The Ettin is an undead and a construct. Both of these are vulnerabilities that
a good opponent will exploit.

True . At least the Ettin has good HP though .

I personally prefer wishing for blood or gems though . But you are maybe right a good AQ is so strong that it is hard to get something of equal power with the wished blood or gems .

[atul]

To say something not so late-gamish as wished things...

(disclaimer: I'm no way too veteran yet and have a habit of using a different nation for every MP, so the following isn't too well tested. So take with a grain of salt and insert critique as you see fit - it will be well received)

1. With a nation that has moderately cheap blood mages and decent troops the first Ice Devil can be summoned around turn 13 or so. By turn 20 there ought to be quite a bunch of them equipped with Const-4 items at least. Items include at least those granting regeneration and increased MR, and then everything else depends on assumed opposition - against hordes of small troops life draining weapon and a damage shield are nice, against undead ditch the life draining and get reinvigoration. And so on.

This approach totally concentrates on getting those IDs first as fast as possible, relying on the (it seems to be by the forum posts) conventional wisdom that first you must research Alt-3 for your pretender and Const-4 to get SDRs. But should those who compete for uniques take that route they see when reaching Blood-5 around turn 20 that there actually aren't too many IDs left.

Everything else (initial expansion, site searching, stuff) is sacrificed, and currently I'm not sure whether it's worth the effort.

2. The IDs are used first alone to mop up easier targets, but there will be a time when they are just a part of bigger armies. They are put against anything that is deemed easy target enough.

3. I'd say buff and charge, although there are few good battlefield-wide spells coming into my mind that may be of use in special situations like against many mages.

4. IDs die when the opponent decides they are worth the effort. They can't teleport nor hide, so they can't always choose their battles. The aim being, cause more damage than you receive. As to continuing after IDs, higher blood circles have their uniques, also better construction circles offer more options to equip those SCs.

[alexti]

I mostly agree with whatTuidjy said. I'd summon an Air Queen by turn 20 (in competitive game, you can't normally get more than one, unless most air and half-air nations are unclaimed), so I won't even try to summon another one (unless I have reasons to think that the opponents are not particularly strong)

I don't really rush for Ice Devils. You could get one by turn 12 or 13, but that would mean just researching the blood. There're plenty of Ice Devils, so the number you can get more depends on your blood hunting than on research. I'd rather go to Con-4, forge SDR and bloodhunt with cheap mages. I'd get to summon ID around turn 15-16, but by then I can chain summon them until they run out (losing 55 blood slaves is not nearly as bad as losing 50 air gems). With Con-4 I can also immediately field those ID with a good equipment. In my opinion, sacrificing everything to get ID by turn 12 is impractical. You can't even safely field it until you get Con-4 (except maybe Gaap).

With C'tis I may summon few bane lords if I get into an early war, otherwise I'd wait for Tartarians too.

I can't really comment on the wishing, because everytime I got there I already had the game more or less wrapped up. And when I wasn't getting there that meant I've died trying ;> Generally, I think that in the end game SCs become obsolete as solo SC. Anything will be destroyed if left alone. So I'm rather looking for a good Tartarians capable of complementing my armies.

I don't mind to lose SCs as long as opposition suffers more. Exchanging SC is welcome if I can produce new ones quicker For example, if opponent took my province with his SC I may custom equip my SC with some expendable items tailored to opponents SC to kill him. Obviously, the next turn it's the turn of my SC to get killed, but that will also expose opponents force, so as long as I find exchange satisfactory, that's fine. This mostly apply to the late game, when it's between the last 2 major nations/alliances. Sometimes it works out funny though. I drop my SC killing opponents SC, he drops his killing squad, but my SC retreats. Round 2. I drop my SC killing opponents SC, he drops his killing squad and bunch of Ghost raiders to cut out retreat, but I drop my anti-GH squad in one of the provinces where my SC retreats. Round 3. I drop my SC killing opponents SC, he makes an assasination attempt with a puny guy. My SC retreats. Damn!

But all those strategy sometimes doesn't work so well. Few months ago I've lost no SCs, not a single major battle, while killing couple of opponents Air Queens, few Ice Devils and winning few major battles, but I've lost the game. How come? Well, he was expending less resources to wage that war and maintain the balance and eventually he has overcome me...