Usmc oob

[sammy1339]

After not playing the game for a couple years I decided to come back and play the campaign "5th Marines 1967" again, which kind of stumped me the first time. I was a little disappointed to find that version 8.0 had introduced some unimprovements into the USMC units.

- The most egregious was that the M202 66 mm flame rocket was available starting in 1967. While this did make the game vastly easier for me, I looked it up and found that this weapon was not introduced until 1978! Flamethrowers also disappear at the same time, which is incorrect. Marine units with the M202 in the 1960's include 379, 382, and 418. I didn't check the USA file.

- Although it's only cosmetic, the ordinary M16 rifle (used from 1962-1967) has disappeared, being replaced by the M16A1/A2. There's also an instantaneous change from the M14 to the M16, which is definitely not accurate. The M16 was gradually phased in.

- I find it really weird that all M16-equipped rifle squads until 1968 (unit #369) use the Stoner 63 as a SAW. This weapon was fielded only in very limited numbers, mostly with SEALs if I'm not mistaken. I'm pretty sure the marines used the M60 machinegun in this role, as was the case in earlier OOB's. I've noticed there are no more infantry squads with M60's.

- This is more of a gripe than anything, but I was a bit disappointed to find that the M40 sniper rifle had an accuracy of 40. Snipers in this game are already a good replacement for entire infantry squads as well as scouts, and are definitely not in need of improvement. I also looked at other OOB's and found that their snipers have not improved. Do we really believe that the M40 sniper rifle is significantly superior to similar Russian weapons? Even if you think that the US rifles have better optics (debatable, especially for the Vietnam era) this should be reflected in "Fire Control," right?

There were also good changes, such as that the M728's 165 mm gun actually fires HESH rounds now, but it seems like a lot of things were changed to make them less historically accurate than in previous versions.

[sammy1339]

AH-1G Cobra is also available from 1/1967. It should probably be 1/1968.

[Suhiir]

Originally Posted by sammy1339

AH-1G Cobra is also available from 1/1967. It should probably be 1/1968.

Look up "Marines and Helicopters 1962-1973" by the History and Museums Division, US Marine Corps. The first AH-1 arrived in Vietnam 29 Aug 1967.
Again the date was "tweaked" a bit to coincide with the picklists used. Originally I had one three times as large as the one currently used in the game, and for a change Don and I agreed on something, that was insane.

[Suhiir]

Originally Posted by sammy1339

- The most egregious was that the M202 66 mm flame rocket was available starting in 1967. While this did make the game vastly easier for me, I looked it up and found that this weapon was not introduced until 1978! Flamethrowers also disappear at the same time, which is incorrect. Marine units with the M202 in the 1960's include 379, 382, and 418. I didn't check the USA file.

I'll deal with these one at a time for the sake of simplicity.

"The M202 series of launchers was developed in the late 1960s as a replacement for the individual portable flamethrower in the US Army. The weapon was designed to provide the infantryman with a better means of neutralizing or destroying enemy gun emplacements and fortified positions. Initially, the complete system consisting of the XM202 launcher and a clip of 4 XM74 rockets, plus other associated equipment and additional ammunition, was designated as the XM191 Multi-Shot Portable Flame Weapon (MPFW). The US Army and the US Marine Corps both evaluated the XM191 system, including field testing in Southeast Asia by the USMC between July and October 1969. The decision to develop additional types of rockets, including the M96 rocket, led to the dropping of the complete system designation XM191 and the usage of the launcher designation and specific rocket designations separately."

I can tell you with 100% certainty the M202 was not introduced in the USMC as late as 1978 because I was in the USMC in 1974 and we had them. Now it's possible (and probable) the US Army didn't get them till 1978.


While July 1969 (see above) is NOT 1967 in many cases weapon introduction dates in WInSPMBT are "tweaked" a bit to coincide with changes to unit "standard" OOB and/or weapons and more importantly picklist "start"/"end" dates.

The older "flame thrower" was removed for the same reason any weapon is, simplicity and overall unit count. While the game can support multiple weapons that perform the same function it's FAR simpler and easier to phase one out when another phases in. Look at tank upgrades. In most cases one day BAM all tanks in an OOB suddenly upgrade to a new model.

[Suhiir]

Originally Posted by sammy1339

- Although it's only cosmetic, the ordinary M16 rifle (used from 1962-1967) has disappeared, being replaced by the M16A1/A2. There's also an instantaneous change from the M14 to the M16, which is definitely not accurate. The M16 was gradually phased in.

- I find it really weird that all M16-equipped rifle squads until 1968 (unit #369) use the Stoner 63 as a SAW. This weapon was fielded only in very limited numbers, mostly with SEALs if I'm not mistaken. I'm pretty sure the marines used the M60 machinegun in this role, as was the case in earlier OOB's. I've noticed there are no more infantry squads with M60's.

Since (except for one experimental battalion) the USMC as a whole didn't adopt the M16 until 1967 there was no real reason to include the M16/AR15 as opposed to the M16A1.

If you look at the OOB you see the M16 appearing as early as 1963 (unit# 369) and the M14 around until 1970 (unit# 358).

The Stoner 63 was used as part of that experimental battalion I mentioned earlier and NOT used anywhere else in the USMC (they simply gave "automatic riflemen" a bipod (99% of whom threw them away) and a few extra 20-round magazines (since the 30-round ones didn't exist at the time).
If you're playing a pre-built scenario it's up to the scenario designer to select the units used in it. Don't assume ANY scenario represents "typical" units of the period.

[DRG]

Originally Posted by Suhiir

Since (except for one experimental battalion) the USMC as a whole didn't adopt the M16 until 1967 there was no real reason to include the M16/AR15 as opposed to the M16A1.

If you look at the OOB you see the M16 appearing as early as 1963 (unit# 369) and the M14 around until 1970 (unit# 358).

I'm going to jump in here one last time then let Suhiir handle this.

It all very well to ***** about changes to the OOBs ( it's almost a "sport" played better by some than others........ ) but it does nothing for your credibility to complain about something when 2 MINUTES ( max ) with the tools we provide disprove a "theory". Case in point

.......There's also an instantaneous change from the M14 to the M16

Suhiir has addressed this but I will follow up on it..........maybe some of you reading this will learn something and not make the same mistake

-Open up MOBHack

- Click on "File" at the top left

- When the menu opens up click on " Database check utilities"

- Click on the "Weapons check" tab

- Find "M14 Rifle" ( weapon 14 )......... and this is what you will see

users of weapon ID 7 M14 Rifle:
243 - MEU HQ - uClass 055 : slot 1 - Available 07/058 to 12/066
328 - Recon Scouts - uClass 101 : slot 1 - Available 07/057 to 08/065
352 - Recon Team - uClass 098 : slot 1 - Available 07/057 to 08/065
358 - USMC Rifle Sqd - uClass 110 : slot 1 - Available 01/062 to 12/070
359 - USMC Rifle Sqd - uClass 110 : slot 1 - Available 01/062 to 12/070
361 - USMC Rifle Sqd - uClass 110 : slot 1 - Available 07/058 to 12/061
371 - USMC Rifle Sqd - uClass 110 : slot 1 - Available 07/058 to 12/061
378 - USMC Engr Team - uClass 020 : slot 1 - Available 07/058 to 12/070
381 - USMC Engr Sqd - uClass 171 : slot 1 - Available 07/058 to 12/070
391 - USMC Scout Team - uClass 241 : slot 1 - Available 07/058 to 12/070
451 - Bunker Squad - uClass 000 : slot 1 - Available 07/058 to 12/066
455 - Shelter Bunker - uClass 000 : slot 1 - Available 07/058 to 12/066
541 - Foxholes MMG - uClass 000 : slot 1 - Available 07/058 to 12/066
678 - Bunker HMG - uClass 000 : slot 1 - Available 07/058 to 12/066
745 - SEAL Pathfinder - uClass 088 : slot 1 - Available 07/062 to 05/068
760 - USMC Rifle Sqd - uClass 110 : slot 1 - Available 07/058 to 12/061
767 - USMC Rifle Sqd - uClass 110 : slot 1 - Available 01/062 to 12/070
785 - USMC Fire Team - uClass 112 : slot 1 - Available 07/058 to 12/070
811 - USMC Fire Team - uClass 240 : slot 1 - Available 07/058 to 12/061
812 - USMC Fire Team - uClass 240 : slot 1 - Available 01/062 to 12/070
826 - USMC Fire Team - uClass 240 : slot 1 - Available 07/058 to 12/061
836 - USMC Fire Team - uClass 240 : slot 1 - Available 01/062 to 12/070
892 - USMC Fwd Obsr - uClass 243 : slot 1 - Available 07/058 to 12/066
976 - Foxholes Squad - uClass 000 : slot 1 - Available 07/058 to 12/066


and from that it can be clearly seen that the M14 is finally phased out at the end of 1970 in this OOB and that there are NOT ONE but NINE units that carry that weapon until the end of 1970

Then we look at the M16A1/A2 Rifle ( weapon #8 ) and find this:

users of weapon ID 8 M16A1/A2 Rifle:
223 - USMC Fwd Obsr - uClass 243 : slot 1 - Available 01/086 to 12/090
224 - USMC Fwd Obsr - uClass 243 : slot 1 - Available 01/067 to 12/074
231 - USMC Fwd Obsr - uClass 243 : slot 1 - Available 01/091 to 12/094
241 - MEU HQ - uClass 055 : slot 1 - Available 01/086 to 12/105
244 - MEU HQ - uClass 055 : slot 1 - Available 01/067 to 12/075
245 - MEU HQ - uClass 055 : slot 1 - Available 01/076 to 12/085
308 - USMC Fwd Obsr - uClass 243 : slot 1 - Available 01/095 to 12/120
327 - Recon Sct/Engr - uClass 141 : slot 1 - Available 09/065 to 12/074
331 - Recon FO/FAC - uClass 229 : slot 1 - Available 01/090 to 03/103
333 - Recon Engr Sec - uClass 141 : slot 1 - Available 01/098 to 03/103
338 - Recon FO/FAC - uClass 229 : slot 1 - Available 01/086 to 12/089
341 - Recon Team - uClass 098 : slot 1 - Available 01/086 to 12/097
346 - Recon Team - uClass 101 : slot 1 - Available 01/098 to 03/103
347 - Recon Team - uClass 098 : slot 1 - Available 01/098 to 03/103
350 - Recon Team - uClass 101 : slot 1 - Available 09/065 to 12/074
351 - Recon Team - uClass 098 : slot 1 - Available 09/065 to 12/074
362 - USMC Rifle Sqd - uClass 110 : slot 1 - Available 01/067 to 12/071
363 - USMC Rifle Sqd - uClass 110 : slot 1 - Available 01/072 to 12/085
364 - USMC Rifle Sqd - uClass 110 : slot 1 - Available 01/086 to 12/102
369 - USMC Rifle Sqd - uClass 110 : slot 1 - Available 01/063 to 12/067
372 - USMC Rifle Sqd - uClass 110 : slot 1 - Available 01/067 to 12/071
379 - USMC Engr Team - uClass 020 : slot 1 - Available 01/067 to 12/085
382 - USMC Engr Sqd - uClass 171 : slot 1 - Available 01/067 to 12/071
383 - USMC Engr Sqd - uClass 171 : slot 1 - Available 01/072 to 12/085
384 - USMC Engr Sqd - uClass 171 : slot 1 - Available 01/086 to 03/103
386 - USMC Engr Team - uClass 020 : slot 1 - Available 01/086 to 03/103
387 - USMC Engr Team - uClass 020 : slot 1 - Available 04/103 to 12/105
389 - USMC Engr Sqd - uClass 171 : slot 1 - Available 04/103 to 12/105
392 - USMC Scout Team - uClass 241 : slot 1 - Available 01/067 to 12/071
393 - USMC Scout Team - uClass 241 : slot 1 - Available 01/072 to 12/085
394 - USMC Scout Team - uClass 241 : slot 1 - Available 01/086 to 12/102
397 - USMC Scout Team - uClass 241 : slot 1 - Available 01/103 to 12/105
452 - Bunker Squad - uClass 000 : slot 1 - Available 01/067 to 12/085
453 - Bunker Squad - uClass 000 : slot 1 - Available 01/086 to 12/105
456 - Shelter Bunker - uClass 000 : slot 1 - Available 01/067 to 12/105
542 - Foxholes MMG - uClass 000 : slot 1 - Available 01/067 to 12/085
543 - Foxholes MMG - uClass 000 : slot 1 - Available 01/086 to 12/105
679 - Bunker HMG - uClass 000 : slot 1 - Available 01/067 to 12/085
680 - Bunker HMG - uClass 000 : slot 1 - Available 01/086 to 12/105
732 - SEAL Fire Team - uClass 145 : slot 1 - Available 01/091 to 03/103
735 - SEAL Squad - uClass 145 : slot 1 - Available 07/064 to 12/071
736 - SEAL Squad - uClass 145 : slot 1 - Available 01/072 to 12/080
737 - SEAL Squad - uClass 145 : slot 1 - Available 01/081 to 12/085
738 - SEAL Fire Team - uClass 145 : slot 1 - Available 01/086 to 12/090
740 - SEAL Squad - uClass 145 : slot 1 - Available 07/064 to 12/071
741 - SEAL Squad - uClass 145 : slot 1 - Available 01/072 to 12/080
742 - SEAL Squad - uClass 145 : slot 1 - Available 01/081 to 12/085
743 - SEAL Fire Team - uClass 145 : slot 1 - Available 01/086 to 03/103
746 - SEAL Pathfinder - uClass 088 : slot 1 - Available 06/068 to 12/085
747 - SEAL Pathfinder - uClass 088 : slot 1 - Available 01/086 to 12/102
761 - USMC Rifle Sqd - uClass 110 : slot 1 - Available 01/063 to 12/067
762 - USMC Rifle Sqd - uClass 110 : slot 1 - Available 01/067 to 12/071
763 - USMC Rifle Sqd - uClass 110 : slot 1 - Available 01/072 to 12/085
764 - USMC Rifle Sqd - uClass 110 : slot 1 - Available 01/086 to 12/105
768 - USMC Rifle Sqd - uClass 110 : slot 1 - Available 01/103 to 12/105
789 - USMC Fire Team - uClass 112 : slot 1 - Available 01/072 to 12/085
790 - USMC Fire Team - uClass 112 : slot 1 - Available 01/086 to 12/102
791 - USMC Fire Team - uClass 112 : slot 1 - Available 01/103 to 12/105
806 - USMC Fire Team - uClass 112 : slot 1 - Available 01/063 to 12/067
807 - USMC Fire Team - uClass 112 : slot 1 - Available 01/067 to 12/071
813 - USMC Fire Team - uClass 112 : slot 1 - Available 01/067 to 12/071
814 - USMC Fire Team - uClass 112 : slot 1 - Available 01/072 to 12/085
816 - USMC Fire Team - uClass 112 : slot 1 - Available 01/103 to 12/105
821 - USMC Fire Team - uClass 112 : slot 1 - Available 01/103 to 12/105
824 - USMC Fire Team - uClass 240 : slot 1 - Available 01/086 to 12/102
827 - USMC Fire Team - uClass 240 : slot 1 - Available 01/072 to 12/085
829 - USMC Fire Team - uClass 240 : slot 1 - Available 01/103 to 12/105
830 - USMC Fire Team - uClass 240 : slot 1 - Available 01/103 to 12/105
833 - USMC Fire Team - uClass 240 : slot 1 - Available 01/063 to 12/067
834 - USMC Fire Team - uClass 240 : slot 1 - Available 01/067 to 12/071
835 - USMC Fire Team - uClass 112 : slot 1 - Available 01/086 to 12/102
893 - USMC Fwd Obsr - uClass 243 : slot 1 - Available 01/075 to 12/085
977 - Foxholes Squad - uClass 000 : slot 1 - Available 01/067 to 12/085
978 - Foxholes Squad - uClass 000 : slot 1 - Available 01/086 to 12/105


We have established that the M14 was phased out in this OOB at the end of 1970 and if we carefully count the number of units that carry the M16 before that time you will find two dozen units with the rifle squads accounting for 2 ( 369 - Available 01/063 to 12/067 and 362 - Available 01/067 to 12/071

The tools to check these things are included with the game package and if they are used a lot of questions and misunderstandings can be answered / avoided, such as a "instantaneous change from the M14 to the M16"



Then there are the flamethrowers

users of weapon ID 119 Flamethrower:
111 - Flamethrower - uClass 195 : slot 1 - Available 01/046 to 12/066
121 - Flamethrower - uClass 195 : slot 1 - Available 01/067 to 12/072
377 - USMC Engr Team - uClass 020 : slot 3 - Available 01/046 to 06/058
378 - USMC Engr Team - uClass 020 : slot 3 - Available 07/058 to 12/070
380 - USMC Engr Sqd - uClass 171 : slot 3 - Available 01/046 to 06/058
381 - USMC Engr Sqd - uClass 171 : slot 3 - Available 07/058 to 12/070
407 - Assault Sec - uClass 040 : slot 2 - Available 01/046 to 12/049
408 - Assault Sec - uClass 040 : slot 2 - Available 01/050 to 06/058
409 - Flame/Demo Tm - uClass 244 : slot 1 - Available 01/065 to 12/066

and the M202

users of weapon ID 239 66mm Flame Rckt:
277 - M202 FlashTeam - uClass 195 : slot 1 - Available 01/067 to 12/085
379 - USMC Engr Team - uClass 020 : slot 3 - Available 01/067 to 12/085
382 - USMC Engr Sqd - uClass 171 : slot 3 - Available 01/067 to 12/071
383 - USMC Engr Sqd - uClass 171 : slot 3 - Available 01/072 to 12/085
384 - USMC Engr Sqd - uClass 171 : slot 3 - Available 01/086 to 03/103
386 - USMC Engr Team - uClass 020 : slot 3 - Available 01/086 to 03/103
418 - Flame/Demo Tm - uClass 244 : slot 1 - Available 01/067 to 12/074
889 - M202 FlashTeam - uClass 195 : slot 1 - Available 01/086 to 03/103





66mm Flame Rckt use starts the beginning of 1967 and the infantry flamethrower ends service at the end of 1972 so the assertion that

Flamethrowers also disappear at the same time, which is incorrect.

is indeed INCORRECT as the flamethrowers and M202 co-exist for five years in this OOB and there is NO change in the flamethrower end date from the previous version of the USMC OOB ( unit 121 )

As to the date the USMC started using the 66mm Flame Rckt......... I'll let Suhiir deal with that. The previous version of the USMC started those in 1973

Don

[Suhiir]

P.S.
The USMC most definitely did NOT use the M60 in the SAW role like the US Army did, that was explicitly removed from the OOB with the revision.

[Suhiir]

Originally Posted by sammy1339

- This is more of a gripe than anything, but I was a bit disappointed to find that the M40 sniper rifle had an accuracy of 40. Snipers in this game are already a good replacement for entire infantry squads as well as scouts, and are definitely not in need of improvement. I also looked at other OOB's and found that their snipers have not improved. Do we really believe that the M40 sniper rifle is significantly superior to similar Russian weapons? Even if you think that the US rifles have better optics (debatable, especially for the Vietnam era) this should be reflected in "Fire Control," right?

If you check other OOBs you'll see the standard "sniper rifle" is accuracy 30, range 15 vice the M40's accuracy 40, range 18. So it most definitely is a significant improvement.
The M40 wasn't introduced until 1966 (at the same time the USMC re-eatablished official "sniper" units having dropped them after WW II) and yes, they did and do replace the "scout" teams typically used until that time. Because scouting IS their primary function not "sniping".
As to optics that's built in (46-53 vision 0, 53-65 vision 5, 66-69 vision 10, etc.), you'll note the "fire control" of the average USMC sniper in the game is "professional quality" (10) vice 0 or 5 as for other OOBs.

[Suhiir]

Originally Posted by sammy1339

There were also good changes, such as that the M728's 165 mm gun actually fires HESH rounds now, but it seems like a lot of things were changed to make them less historically accurate than in previous versions.

Good point!
This is one I overlooked.
I don't have access to the exact weapon formulas used in the game, Don, Andy, what should the stats for a 165mm HESH round be?

[DRG]

Originally Posted by Suhiir

Good point!
This is one I overlooked.
I don't have access to the exact weapon formulas used in the game, Don, Andy, what should the stats for a 165mm HESH round be?

As you say in post #9, you're the author of this OOB so you get to answer the questions. The quote in the first part acknowledges that the 165mm gun fired HESH rounds and that we have it set up as a HESH gun. This was done for winSPMBT v7 so that is a year and a half old news now and when it was changed to a HESH weapon in 2013 the specs were changed from what was there previously when it was set up as WC#7.

That said, the HESH issue is secondary to the main point of that paragraph and this is

"a lot of things were changed to make them less historically accurate than in previous versions"

and that comment is ALL YOURS to deal with as it has nothing to do with adding HESH to the game in 2013

However I will confirm that some things *may* be off by a year or two as all the factors that make up picklists were taken into account. Right now the USMC picklist is the most complicated picklist in the game but it could have been at least twice the size it is now to accommodate all the little nit picking details like EXACTLY when weapons went in and out of service and the decision was made to pare it down to a more manageable size.

The first question I'd ask Sammy1339 is how long he served in the USMC and just where he " looked up " the info for the M202


Don