Atlantis and upkeep/supply

ioticus · #1 December 2nd, 2004, 01:57 PM

I tried Atlantis for the first time with the thought of using clam hoarding. I had a nice astral economy and empowered a mage to cast wish. I thought I had the game in hand until I realized my upkeep had greatly exceeded my income to the point I had to wish for gold just to keep my head above water. Also, Atlantis' troops use a huge amount of supply, so much that forging cauldrons of broth was not enough. I will lose this game due to losing all my dominion. Any tips on dealing with Atlantis' supply and upkeep issues? Do you rely on summoned troops?

archaeolept · #2 December 2nd, 2004, 02:17 PM

i'm not a big atlantis player, but I have to say i'm puzzled as to how/why atlantis especially has supply problems? perhaps you were buying too large standing armies of chaff troops? But even so, how was it that you weren't able to pay upkeep - was ermor's dominion marauding over your own, or were you just losing prime territories in a war?

also, the cauldron of broth sucks. only make bags of neverending wine.

ioticus · #3 December 2nd, 2004, 02:22 PM

Quote:

archaeolept said:
i'm not a big atlantis player, but I have to say i'm puzzled as to how/why atlantis especially has supply problems? perhaps you were buying too large standing armies of chaff troops? But even so, how was it that you weren't able to pay upkeep - was ermor's dominion marauding over your own, or were you just losing prime territories in a war?

also, the cauldron of broth sucks. only make bags of neverending wine.

Yes, I was losing dominion to someone, but how does that affect income? Also, isn't upkeep based on troop size? Atlantis' troops are sizes 2+, so they require a lot of upkeep. Any why do cauldrons suck? They provide more supply than bags of wine.

archaeolept · #4 December 2nd, 2004, 02:30 PM

1. enemy dominion decreases your income by i believe 1% per pt (and your own dominion likewise improves income by the same amount). However, undead dominion (ermor especially, but also carrion woods pangaia) will cause all of your population to die, thus rather affecting income from said provinces ;-)

2. upkeep is based solely on purchase cost and sacred status. upkeep is 1/15 of purchase, or 1/30 of purchase cost for sacred units. Supply used by units is based on unit size.

3. Cauldrons provide 50 supply for 20 nature gems. Bags of wine provide 25 supply for 5 nature gems. Thus, bags are twice as efficient as cauldrons. If you use dwarven hammers, the bags (@3 gems) are two and a half times as efficient as cauldrons (@15 gems).

Wendigo · #5 December 2nd, 2004, 02:46 PM

As arch says, supply is based on size: your lobsters eat as much as 5 size2 troopers, and your shamblers eat twice as much.

Solve your upkeep problems with a better economy: better economic scales (order, production, growth & luck), a higher admin fort, building forts in your best provinces income-wise, searching for fire-earth gems & alchemizing them with an alchemist stone)

Solve your supply issues with a growth scale (increases supply inside your dominion +20% per pick, and with further increases over time because of population increases), and by picking a good admin fort & building it in those provinces you have supply problems (forts have a supply radius).

A lot of people play nowadays with low admin forts & a death scale, maybe that just doesn't suit you (it's definitely not a 'must do' as far as I am concerned).

ioticus · #6 December 2nd, 2004, 02:55 PM

Quote:

Wendigo said:
As arch says, supply is based on size: your lobsters eat as much as 5 size2 troopers, and your shamblers eat twice as much.

War lobsters are size 5 and shamblers (which I mainly used in the game) are size 3. So how do shamblers eat twice as much?

Endoperez · #7 December 2nd, 2004, 02:37 PM

Enemy dominion doens't affect your income straight, with the exception of C'tis Miasma IIRC, but Ermor's dominion kills population *very* fast. Pangaea: Carrion Woods does that also. And if that nation's dominion takes your provinces' scales to negative, that will hurt you. I think enemy dominion also increases unrest, and that in turn lowers income.

Upkeep is not based on troops' size, but recruiting price. 1/30 for most units, 1/15 for sacreds. So remember to watch the number of those mages! Supply use is based on troops' size, and you might have confused it with upkeep.

Wineskins are more cost effective. 5 gems for 25 food is worse than 20 for 50, but You can forge 4 wineskins for 20 gems and get 100 supply points... If you give them to four commanders, that is. Wineskins don't stack with wineskins, cauldrons won't stack with cauldrons, but wineskin and cauldron on the same commander will work fine.

ioticus · #8 December 2nd, 2004, 02:46 PM

Yeah, I confused the two. I still need tips on reducing upkeep costs and running out of supply though. I think part of the problem is I get tired of micromanaging taxes and have a lot of unrest reducing my income. What sorts of troops do you normally recruit for Atlantis?

Graeme Dice · #9 December 3rd, 2004, 12:14 AM

Quote:

splooger said:
Also, isn't upkeep based on troop size? Atlantis' troops are sizes 2+, so they require a lot of upkeep.

Upkeep is based on purchase cost. Supply usage is based on unit size. The upkeep for a unit is 1/15 of its gold cost per turn, or 1/30 if the unit is sacred.

Quote:

Any why do cauldrons suck? They provide more supply than bags of wine.

Cauldrons provide 50 supply for 20 gems, winebags provide 25 supply for 5 gems. Winebags are twice as cost-effective.

Taqwus · #10 December 3rd, 2004, 12:47 PM

Yeah, typo w/ MAX/MIN.

Once you have the construction research for bags, aye, go with the bags unless you have extremely few nature mages but a glut of nature gems (in which case, why aren't you summoning Lamia Queens and -getting- more nature mages) or need the supply ASAP. Slots aren't a huge issue since scouts can carry the bags... and the scouts can also carry gems/slaves for rationing purposes or items you may want to withhold based on the situation (say, Staff of Storms, although Atlantis with its lack of missile/flying troops will rarely have a reason to not like Storms unless meeting an air nation with units getting storm bonuses... and in that situation it's not like the storm isn't going to happen anyway.)

Using more scouts/slots also somewhat reduces the impact of a spell remotely killing one of your scouts.

The sea troll summons might still be interesting for the Sea Kings; what are the requirements for Quickening, for instance? The trolls themselves, hm... perhaps not that impressive. Perhaps clams, then Abominations for something still vaguely thematic (more R'lyeh ish 'tho) after you're done equipping the Elemental Queens of Water. Or Wolven Winter + Murdering Winter...