Friendly Fire from aircraft

[BigJim]

I find it very unrealistic to have friendly fire (air) in modern battles, this is a VERY rare occassion now what with IFF being wide use by almost every major power

[Pyros]

Hi,

What you described would add (from a designing/programming point of view) an additional variable in the game and this is not an easy task.

Also don't forget that WinSPMBT refers to a period of 70 years and the friendly fire by air assets was a fact in many wars during that period (Vietnam).

cheers,

[PlasmaKrab]

How do you discernate among ground targets FROM an aircraft?
It doesn't look as if much ground-IFF systems were on the field today (but maybe I'm wrong), and if they are or when they'll be, they tend to be more related to ground-to-ground weapons, AT helos at most.

There is no way for a strike aircraft to pick out friendly ground units with IFF, except probably radar stations. IFF is by definition air-to-air and ground-to-air only, because only aircrafts have transponders.
Only way is proper recognition training , and that comes with country training I guess, although you can add experince to your pilots if you like.

Anyway, friendly fire from aircraft IS quite frequent rhight now, some happened during OIF/OEF, and way back in the first Gulf War.

Besides, you must take into account the sped of the aircraft and the time scale involved. One turn is about 3 to 5 minutes. You send a plane strike at one hex, from one direction, and he comes 2 turns (max 10 min.) later, an 500 mph or so, and, tough luck, some of your units are on his way.
Your pilot has about a half minute visibility on the target, probably already programmed the bombing run, what do you expect him to do?
Would you prefer your own planes to break off at the first doubt? Under fire?

Now you will agree that you don't see any friendly fire AGAINST aircrafts, which would be less likely, but can happen.
Anyway, the game has NO friendly fire logic AFAIK, and I don't think one is planned. Aircrafts are just instructed to deal with one target hex, more than often they don't see an enemy unit at all, particularly bombers, and just drop all they have on the target spot and don't give a damn.

On the other hand, you can decrease your chances of friendly fire by carefully planning your entry routes according to where your ground forces are, and always better target a unit that is in someone's sight, and not too close from your forces.

In desperate cases, I guess you could try to raise vision, FC and experience of modern fighters, that may be helpful (?).

Cheers,

Plasma

[Pyros]

Pyros said:
Also don't forget that WinSPMBT refers to a period of 70 years and the friendly fire by air assets was a fact in many wars during that period (Vietnam).

cheers,

Hi people,

I agree with Kevin.

everyone is right

Just try to be more precise to what you mean.

For example in Korea and Vietnam casualties from friendly fire was a reality.

Even in Desert storm this was a fact.

But what will happen after 2014?

With the new technologies based on military GIS (satellite positioning) and the applications of Future Combat Systems (FCS)sensors the "blue on blue" or "friendly fire" or "fratricide" won't be a serious issue in the futuristic battleground.

In other words BigJim is right concerning dates after 2010!

So, everyone is happy.

cheers,
Pyros

p.s BTW, it would be great if we could discuss the future of these new technologies!

[Mobhack]

BigJim said:
I find it very unrealistic to have friendly fire (air) in modern battles, this is a VERY rare occassion now what with IFF being wide use by almost every major power

Tell that to the crews of the UK Warriors and CVR(T) shot up in ODS and the recent Iraqui business, and to the various US Bradleys etc shot up in both operations then..

SNAFUS happen, and gee-whiz tech just means that if your gee-whiz IFF transponder goes tits-up, BOTH sides will try to kill you .

Oh - and vehicles do not have IFF transponders, in the last iraqui conflict, they had reflective panels.

If the A-10 pilot thinks he is operating in a designated kill zone he may simply ignore the IFF reflective panel check "because everything in this box will be enemy", and go straight to attack mode without the bother of doing a recognition check, because "they must be bad guys".

Anything with human beings in the loop is subject to human errors and hence, SNAFU. Anything that relies on IFF or other gee-whiz tech is also subject to both electronic AND human SNAFU. The electronic SNAFU just tends to kill you a tad faster than the human variety, is all

Navigation errors happen, even with modern GPS. Observers get thier coordinates wrong. Pilots and arty plotters punch the wrong buttons and enter erroneous data which the gee-whiz kit happily munches up.

War and SNAFU are constant companions.


Cheers
Andy

[Pergite]

BigJim said:
I find it very unrealistic to have friendly fire (air) in modern battles, this is a VERY rare occassion now what with IFF being wide use by almost every major power

In 2002, a 500-pound laser-guided bomb was dropped on the 3rd Battalion of the Princess Patricia's Canadian Light Infantry, wounding eight and killing four.

On 28 March 2003 a armoured column was driving near the Shatt al-Arab waterway north of Basra came under fire from a pair of American ground attack aircraft. A trooper named Finney escaped from the burning vehicle. Returned to help his trapped and succeeded in rescuing him. Realising that his comrades inside were all injured, he returned to the vehicle a second time to inform his headquarters of the situation via the radio. He then proceeded to help the wounded safety even while the two aircraft carried out a second attack, hitting Finney in the lower back and legs. Finally, he returned to the scene of the attack a third time to attempt to rescue the injured driver of another burning vehicle. A well deserved GC.

And these wherent even battle related or CAS asignemnts. There have been many close call incdents that never make the offical statistics. Friendly fire is still a huge problem, and going 700knots doesnt make it easier to tell friend from foe.

True, there are IFF systems for ground units, but they arent standarized and I havent encountered it yet.
The problem is that technology alone wont eliminate the possibility of human error and if you order a air strike carelessly then you/someone will have to pay the consequences. The role of a FAC (Forward Air Controller) can be a nightmare in some enviroments, in SPMBT you can just choose an aproach vector and a target hex.

SPMBT however lacks friendly fire between ground troops, but that I guess is out of the game engines capabilities. The only cases is when you fire into the same hex as your troops, but no OP-fire incidents exist.

[DRG]

Pergite said:

SPMBT however lacks friendly fire between ground troops, but that I guess is out of the game engines capabilities. The only cases is when you fire into the same hex as your troops, but no OP-fire incidents exist.

IF you Z key the wrong hex you can FF your own troops and make them very unhappy

Don

[BigJim]

Heh ok the system is unable to handle it, but don't quote me a few "rare" situations and tell me the IFF system doesn't work. Sure there will be some foul ups but in the main the system works (even at 700 knots ESPECIALLY at 700 knots). IFF works the same on the ground as it does in the air, barring any RFI. In the first Iraq war we shot up some of our own MBT's because the guys shot up DIDN'T have their's turned on (commander forgot to do it) and the other friendly did and will no "tone" fired on what he thought was an unfriendly target

[DRG]

BigJim said:
I find it very unrealistic to have friendly fire (air) in modern battles, this is a VERY rare occassion now what with IFF being wide use by almost every major power

How close were your troops that got hit to the target hex for the air strike and how close were they to the enemy troops? I have found, from complaints like this in the past, that players generally call in air strikes much closer to their own troops in the game that what would be normal in actual battle situations and that closeness generates more FF incidences.

Has anyone on this list actually called in an air strike in combat?? I'd be interested to hear your opinion on this.

Don

[FJ_MD]

Well, I mostly play games in the 50s to 70s and in a lot of situation the aircraft dropped bombs too early or too late but this is part of the war I think!