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  #1  
Old January 16th, 2006, 04:03 PM

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Default Machaka in CB

I was a big fan of Machaka, until I played MP and really analysed the game. Its not exactly that they're bad, its that they aren't good when you compare them to just about any other race. Lets begin with the biggest problem: black hunters.

I discussed this with a couple people in the multiplayer irc room, but I wanted to lay out the case properly here. Black hunter stats (initial form) are as follows:
HP: 13, Pro: 22, MR:11, Mor:14, Str:11, Att: 12, Def: 10, MV:20

CB takes a step in the right direction and at least gives them lances. But the fact of the matter is that these stats in no way justify a 125 gold cost. They have 3 attacks, but with an att of 12 they don't hit enough. With a def of 10, they get hit plenty, and with only 13 hp they need to rely completely on their 22 protection for any kind of use. They also have a size 6 which means they can get ganged up on in a serious way.

At 125 gold, they're (I believe) the second most expensive national unit - to the hydra (at 250 gold). Lets compare these to other units with the same exact effects - machaka spider knights for instance, 45 gold (non-sacred).

Stats are as follows:
HP: 12, Pro: 18, Mor: 11, MR: 10, Att: 11, Def: 13

For 45 gold, nearly 1/3 the cost you get a unit that has better defense, 1 point lower attack, and 4 points lower protection.

But you also get 4 attacks - one being web spit which actually hits (since its an area attack unlike the black spider bite).

Counting recruitment cost alone - 3 spider knights will at all times be superior to 1 black hunter. In upkeep cost, two spider knights will again be superior to 1 black hunter.

Now lets take a look at a different race completely and compare: Pyth (Serpent Cult) has Serpent Cataphracts, these like the machaka spiders also get a mount that fights when its rider dies, and the mount rocks (22 protection (although maybe that was with e9 bless)) and has a similar amount of HP I think ~45.

The Serpent Cataphracts base stats are as follows:
HP: 12, Pro: 18, Mor: 12, MR: 10, Str: 12, Att: 12, Def: 14.

They are sacred and have a 52 gold cost (and a massive 58 resource cost - but for now we focus on gold).

The base stats on the serpent cataphract are nearly equal to the hunter spider - you lose 4 pro, but gain 2 str, 2 att, and 4 def. At least they're comperable.

The problem is that they're ~40% the cost. Less than half. They are resource expensive, and that is some kind of balance. But all things considered at 52 gold a piece, they're decent units. Py SC also has access to two different kinds of hydra (which I believe are seriously underrated and at cost so wildly outpace hunter spiders as to be laughable).

The only sacred unit that might be close to as bad is the Knight of the Chalice, at 90 gold who gets no second form. Its initial form though is much better rounded, and more importantly Mar gets flagellants which gives the bless strategy seeker flexability - IE: he can spam flagellants early, then when he needs something with survivability and punch can take KoCs.

And that leads us to my final problem with Black Hunters, bless strategies require very bad scales - in order to make up for those awful scales early - you need to be able to expand very quickly in the early game. With only one sacred unit available to Machaka, at 125 gold a piece - you cannot field groups of black hunters larger than 4 in the early game. And a group of 4 black hunters has neither the survivability nor punch needed to justify 500 gold in the very early game.

Thats my case against machaka spiders. Here are my suggestions on making them better for CB 5.3:

First, make spider knights sacred. This gives machaka a little bit more flexability, and allows a bless strategy to field enough of them early to be effective. The cost for a spider knight should increase as appropriate to somewhere between 50-60 (they have worse stats than serp cataphract which cost 52).

Second, instead of reducing the cost of the Black Hunter - buff him till he's worth it. Through a change in equipment or base stats, increase his defense to 14-16, str to 12-13, and attack to ~14. Or a less radical buff with a cost decrease.

Lastly, Javelins. Even with the hefty CB cost reduction they aren't worth it. They simply never hit. I would suggest increasing cost to javelin infantry by 1-2 across the board, and buffing the precision to 0 (perhaps with a -1 dmg to justify the still low cost). Cherry's Recruitable Rebalance takes this approach to javelins which gives them an excellent niche, and makes them effective against lightly armed troops when used in conjunction with other troops, which is as it should be.


After all that, I should note that I am pretty new to MP, and its possible I'm wrong about all this - and just haven't used black hunters correctly. . . doubtful, but possible
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Old January 16th, 2006, 04:37 PM
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Default Re: Machaka in CB

I think you named the thread wrong. You don't have problems with Machaka, but with Black Hunters. In that I can agree with you. Black Hunters are very expensive, the first form isn't worth the cost, and sacred warriors shouldn't be required to die before they are worth their cost... except as a Marignon theme! Undead flagellants! (Not very probable, though!)
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Old January 16th, 2006, 05:04 PM
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Default Re: Machaka in CB

I almost never use the black hunters until I have lots of gold stored up or coming into my kingdom. And when I do use them I make sure they travel with some strong mages to provide increased bonuses for their survival.

Also the rider of the black hunter is not that useful... it's the huge spider which lives a much longer time afterwards. Yet as mentioned earlier these only appear Mid and Late game for my armies.
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Old January 16th, 2006, 06:46 PM
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Default Re: Machaka in CB

I (the player) felt Fear for my units when I first saw the black hunter... then disappointment as he couldn't really do anything. NTJedi, do you actually find them useful when they are buffed, or would other high-protection units do just as well?
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Old January 16th, 2006, 07:29 PM

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Default Re: Machaka in CB

thats exactly the thing - they LOOK amazing, but the best thing about them is their sprite.

EDIT: the problem with the second form is that its crappy. A single attack, moderate protection and 55hp. Not to mention any bless effects which are good for the spider suck for the rider, and vice versa. You are paying a huge premium for something that doesn't really help. If the warriors could dismount during combat and you had both units fighting seperate then they'd be a fair deal (125 for two units at 60 a pop) - but when you get in a situation where the rider dies, often its a situation where having the spider come next doesn't really help.

and again - the serpent cataphracts are almost exactly the same unit as the black spider for 75 less gold per pop.
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Old January 16th, 2006, 09:35 PM
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Default Re: Machaka in CB

It's the old problem with the gold cost, unit stats and mounts. In general, you pay somewhat for getting a mounted unit. With some units, you pay for a unit with double hitpoints (1st and 2nd form), but as you only get them one after the other, price increase isn't that big. (=> Mictlan animal warriors, Serpent Cataphracts)

But with the Black Hunters, you basically pay as if you had a 12+45HP, size 6 unit with 4 attacks and poison resistance all time long, not only after the rider dies and you're left with an afflicted spider.

There's one exception, though: Jotunheims Moose Riders. Instead of 2x 8HP, they get about 45 HP - from the Moose.

So there are 2 alternatives:
Price the Black Hunters similar to other nations 2-form blessable units.
Or add a %tage of the mounts HP to the first form. E.g. a knight might get +5..+7 from the horse, the Black Hunters would get +20HP. Some mounts hitpoints might be difficult to figure out, maybe +5HP per point of size the mounted unit is bigger than the unmounted rider would be as a general rule (what would not acount for exceptionally sturdy or fragile mounts, though)

HP values might be off somewhat, I'm too lazy to look them up, and I don't know them by heart. hmmm, should I ?
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Old January 18th, 2006, 10:13 PM
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Default Re: Machaka in CB

Quote:
Morkilus said:
NTJedi, do you actually find them useful when they are buffed, or would other high-protection units do just as well?
What makes the hunter spiders good is the life and above average protection, what makes the hunter spider bad is the cost.
From my experience an army taking new territories will do better spending that gold on Machaka Hoplites. Pound per pound of gold and upkeep, the Hoplites are a better investment unless you're moving into a territory with crossbowmen/longbowmen.

During ugly battles the black hunters will have a better chance of survival at the end because of their life and protection... unless you're going against lots of mages. MR is a weakness they have so have these big spiders avoid the more powerful enemy spellcasters.
From my experience they last longer then most knights and mounted units..... not the rider... the spider.
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Old January 19th, 2006, 05:36 AM

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Default Re: Machaka in CB

... a slimy tentacle rose from the deep and out clarion called out deep within the madness.

Furblog!
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Old January 18th, 2006, 07:33 AM
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Default Re: Machaka in CB

I also tend to agree with Ironhawk & Boron. However, I like to play Machaka already as it is. They are fine, (especially with the ConceptBalanceMod)!

Nevertheless I think it is foolish to try a bless strategy with Machaka in MP. I recall that in one of the lost elder threads (aka the posts that were written before the great forum update happened, which lost them forever in history) discussing machaka strategies, everyone agreed that a bless strategy would not work, simply because it costs so much and pays off so late. The advice was to go with good scales to build lots of Spider Knights (& some Archers, Chaff and Black Sorcerors every turn that I could afford one - of course). This worked pretty well for me in MP thus far. Without ever building more than five Black Hunter, of course.

So what scales can you drop for a bless? Order & Productivity are required to build your sacred troops and death costs money too. Without money and resource, the number of sacred troops becomes to small to pay off the disadvantges...but then again I cannot see any bless strategy really working with most other nations either.
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Old January 18th, 2006, 12:10 PM
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Default Re: Machaka in CB

Units seldom used, Mar 2004
Advice on Machaka appreciated, Apr 2004
Effective army for Machaka, Jun 2004
Gryphon Rider too weak? Jun 2004
Machaka and their spiders, Dec 2003


Does it happen to be any of these? I used the forum search engine. The first I found with
+machaka +"hunter spider" +blessing ,
more after leaving the blessing out of the search.
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