As A Leader What Would You Do?

[Atrocities]

As a leader of a mighty space empire, would you tollorate a smaller religiously zealot lead empire who has sworn to destroy one of your allies, and openly opposes and supports terrorism against your empire, from developing sun destroying weapons?

In other words, what would you do if you were facing an Iran situation in one of your games?

[Renegade 13]

Wipe 'em out. Leave nothing but a pile of radioactive, glowing glass.

Yes, I'm a little violent!

[Strategia_In_Ultima]

I'd try to reason with them, but I'd ready my Special Forces at the same time, in case the talks go wrong. Steal all their research and the resources necessary to make (solar) nukes, abduct or kill the scientists (I'd prefer abduct, but if that's impossible, well shucks then, snipe 'em) and put pressure on the leader(s). But only if I'd run out of other options.

[Renegade 13]

Strategia_In_Ultima said:
I'd try to reason with them, but I'd ready my Special Forces at the same time, in case the talks go wrong. Steal all their research and the resources necessary to make (solar) nukes, abduct or kill the scientists (I'd prefer abduct, but if that's impossible, well shucks then, snipe 'em) and put pressure on the leader(s). But only if I'd run out of other options.

Impractical.

Stealing research in this day and age is impossible. There would be so many back-ups and copies you'd never get all of them. No point even trying that. Steal a bunch of highly refined uranium from a hostile country? Good luck. Abduct or kill the scientists? Sure, why not stoop to the level of a terrorist, which is what you'd be if you went in and started blowing people away for the sole reason that you think you're the only one with the right to have nukes.

Put pressure on a religious zealot that hates you? How? Not when they have you by the short hairs with regards to a resource you don't have enough of...

Only options; Flatten the nation. And I don't mean go in there with troops, that's doomed to failure. I mean flatten literally. As in, carpet bombing. Or stay out of it. Only practical solutions in this day and age.

[Strategia_In_Ultima]

Renegade 13 said:

Impractical.

Stealing research in this day and age is impossible. There would be so many back-ups and copies you'd never get all of them. No point even trying that.

So, steal any research we can, destroy the rest, and if they try and do it again just send in military forces before they can finish research again.

Steal a bunch of highly refined uranium from a hostile country? Good luck.

Steal it, destroy it, meh. Bomb the refining plants. Boom bada boom, and you might not have destroyed all the uranium but you can also put back their research if you bomb the right plants.

Abduct or kill the scientists? Sure, why not stoop to the level of a terrorist, which is what you'd be if you went in and started blowing people away for the sole reason that you think you're the only one with the right to have nukes.

I said (though maybe not clearly) that abduction would be my preferred method of "elimination"; I'd kill them ONLY if we'd run out of options. Abducting them does not mean "put them in Guantanamo", at least to me; to me, it means "keep them alive but have them locked up safely where you can keep an eye on them until they can no longer do harm".

Put pressure on a religious zealot that hates you? How? Not when they have you by the short hairs with regards to a resource you don't have enough of...

Once (if) we've taken/killed their scientists, disabled their refining plants, set back their research programme by years, possibly decades, they'll be at least slightly more..... agreeable. Agreed, religious zealots won't; but putting pressure on them is easier. Even if "putting pressure on them" means "stationing troops just outside their border ready to invade at any time". That's pressure too, you know.

Only options; Flatten the nation. And I don't mean go in there with troops, that's doomed to failure. I mean flatten literally. As in, carpet bombing.

Ooh, now that's a bad idea. Flattening the research and production facilities, OK, but flattening the nation? And how do you think the rest of your allies would react?

Or stay out of it. Only practical solutions in this day and age.

Touché.

I was only talking from a fictional standpoint, not the current situation. IF I were a superpower (cough,cough) and IF a nation of religious zealots..... et cetera.

[Atrocities]

Personally I would leave them alone. Let them develop whatever they want. They have the right to do so as a nation of this planet. Who are we to say "NO!" Until they use said weapons against another country or are linked to the use of a nuke they have the right to research, manufacture, and posess said weapons.

However if they ever use them, or are linked to the use of one of them, then yes, let the holly war of retribution begin.

[Renegade 13]

Atrocities said:
Personally I would leave them alone. Let them develop whatever they want. They have the right to do so as a nation of this planet. Who are we to say "NO!" Until they use said weapons against another country or are linked to the use of a nuke they have the right to research, manufacture, and posess said weapons.

However if they ever use them, or are linked to the use of one of them, then yes, let the holly war of retribution begin.

This is my thinking as well. Why should some people have the right to have as many nukes as they want, while others don't? What give anyone the right to determine that?

[Renegade 13]

Strategia_In_Ultima said:

So, steal any research we can, destroy the rest, and if they try and do it again just send in military forces before they can finish research again.

Agreed, you could set them back. But you couldn't get rid of the research that is already completed, I think.

Steal it, destroy it, meh. Bomb the refining plants. Boom bada boom, and you might not have destroyed all the uranium but you can also put back their research if you bomb the right plants.

Bomb a uranium refining plant? That'd spread enough radioactive dust around that you might as well just carbet bomb!

I said (though maybe not clearly) that abduction would be my preferred method of "elimination"; I'd kill them ONLY if we'd run out of options. Abducting them does not mean "put them in Guantanamo", at least to me; to me, it means "keep them alive but have them locked up safely where you can keep an eye on them until they can no longer do harm".

Actually, I just missed the part about abducting as a first measure! But either way, the point is the same. Abducting and possibly killing people...reminds me of modern-day terrorists!

Once (if) we've taken/killed their scientists, disabled their refining plants, set back their research programme by years, possibly decades, they'll be at least slightly more..... agreeable. Agreed, religious zealots won't; but putting pressure on them is easier. Even if "putting pressure on them" means "stationing troops just outside their border ready to invade at any time". That's pressure too, you know.

Agreed, that's quite a bit of pressure! The problem would be executing all of the above without already starting a war you couldn't really win...

Ooh, now that's a bad idea. Flattening the research and production facilities, OK, but flattening the nation? And how do you think the rest of your allies would react?

It may sound cold, but I'd be in favor of it. What else can you do? You can't send in troops, we all know where that'd get you. You can't make idle threats, that's kinda useless as well. Leave you with two options in a religiously fanatical country; either kill them all, or leave them alone.

Touché.

I was only talking from a fictional standpoint, not the current situation. IF I were a superpower (cough,cough) and IF a nation of religious zealots..... et cetera.

Of course, this is a totally hypothetical conversation!

[Renegade 13]

To be honest, a single nuke would not damage the world as a whole very much, if at all. The Middle East wouldn't be a good place to be, and wherever the prevailing winds drag the fallout also wouldn't be a nice place to be. But over here in North America, I don't think we'd see any measurable effect.

Look at all the nuclear testing that has been done. Atmospheric testing, underground testing, ground level testing, underwater testing...

You say the US was the first to know the horror of the weapons. Probably true. Also understood the effects, besides the immediate "ka-boom" effect of nukes, fallout, etc. And yet...the US continued testing nukes for decades! This doesn't seem horribly mature, given what nuclear fallout can do...

That said, with the number of tests that have been done in over the past 60 years (Think Bikini Atoll), another single nuke will not damage the rest of the world significantly, especially since it's guaranteed to not be a monster.

[Wenin]

Renegade 13,

I can't believe you are even going to venture into the realm of comparing the relative effects on the planet from nuclear tests to that of a nuclear strike. Where are you getting a SINGLE nuke from?

Iran tosses ONE nuke at Israel.
Israel tosses X nukes at Iran.


Now if you're Iran, would you really only use ONE nuke?


So really it's Y nukes at Israel.


Y + X = A lot of nukes

ASSUMING that Pakistan isn't going to sit idly by.

W nukes at India
Z nukes at Pakistan

Then we have 3 NUKES at the US from North Korea...... OH [censored] now it's on!!!

US Nukes North Kora
US Nukes China for safe measure

China Nukes the US

US Nukes China
UK Nukes China
France Nukes itself


Chain reaction....



The ONLY way MAD works is if EVERYONE at the table knows that EVERYONE dies..... AND THEY ALL HAVE TO CARE.


Does Iran care? Will they always care?