British Mech infantry Service Dates and vehicles

[chuckfourth]

Hi All
From this site
http://www.diggerhistory.info/pages-...en_carrier.htm
we have
"There next followed the Carrier, Cavalry MkI, which was developed to carry six men who sat on either side of the rear compartments facing the engine. This was not a popular vehicle as its occupants were not protected from enemy fire."
From this site
http://www.angelfire.com/art/enchanter/bren.html
we have
"Carrier, Cavalry, No 1. This carrier was intended to transport the dismounted personnel of cavalry light tank regiments. In addition to its two crew it could carry six men in the rear. A framework of hoops to support a canvas hood was fitted to protect the passengers from the weather. Only 50 were built."
"All of these models (Carrier, Cavalry, No 1) were in use from 1938-40, and many were lost when the BEF was driven from France."
"The Loyd can be identified by its four roadwheels, lack of bow machine gun housing and rear mounted engine. There was sufficient room to either side of the engine for personnel to board from the rear."
From this site
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Loyd_Carrier
we have
"The armoured box of the superstructure covered the front and sides but was open to the rear and above but as the Carrier was not expected to function as a fighting vehicle this was not an issue"

So we have a dilema, Currently the British Mech infantry is carried in Loyd carriers problems being,
Loyd carrier has no machine gun in game it has.
Loyd carrier has an open back should be armour rating of 0 in game has 1.
Loyd carrier can carry 8 infantry, in game it carries 10.
Maybe the British Mech infantry was carried in the Carrier, Cavalry, No 1
Which does have a machine gun
Does have an armoured rear
but only carries 6 men.
If the british mech infantry coy should be carried in "Carrier, Cavalry, No 1" not Lloyd carriers, then this formation should cease to exist in May 40 and armoured Mech Infantry shouldnt reappear until the advent of the M3, in the meantime trucks were used.
My suggestion would be that the Lloyd carrier be renamed the Cavalry carrier and be restricted to only carrying 6 men. And that the service dates for this vehicle/formation should be 9/39 to 5/40. I guess there would need to be a clone of the Mech infantry Co created to deal with the new 6 man squads. Using the Lloyd carrier with its current service dates efffectively gives the British armoured infantry in the desert, which they actualy didnt have until the advent of the M3.
I have looked for any references for the cavalry carrier Mech inf coy being used in action and have so far drawn a blank.
Of course I am ignoring the fact that with the 6 soldiers crammed into the vehicle werent fully protected by the vehicles armour, as I guess this would be difficult to model. However this would tend to suggest that the Loyd carrier and probably the "Carrier, Cavalry, No 1" were actually rear area vehicles.
Best regards Chuck

[Mobhack]

I will check this out further. The Lloyd was always a bit of a kludge/bodge methinks - I think the original "Lloyd carrier" is a hold-over from the original SSI OOBs, where it was used as an APC for the entire war (may be thinking SP3 here though?). It has definately been around some time anyhow!.

Probably the best thing to do if the thingy is to be removed (which seems best) is to:
a) nationalise the existing APC version to 0 - in case some scenarios have it
b) Change the stats of the arty tow version slightly (this seems to be the main use - specifically 6 pdr ATG tows)
c) Advance the start date of the UK mech inf formation until the halftracks arrive, and ignore the weird earlier carriers (which were rear service equipment with no protections). Change pick list code to suit.
d) Examine all Commonwealth and Commonwealth-supplied OOBs to the same.


Cheers
Andy

[chuckfourth]

Hi Andy
Very excellent You may also want to look at the formation Mech Patrol. Whether these reconascience units actually carried "extra" men over and above the 2/3 man crew, as modeled in the game I have been unable to establish. And so wether or not the extra men would be fully protected from small arms fire I think may be uncertain. The origional "Carrier, Scout, MkI" (ie with a radio and third man radio operator) version had to have the sides especially built up to protect him.
Best regards Chuck.

[TDR]

chuckfourth said:
Hi Andy
Very excellent You may also want to look at the formation Mech Patrol. Whether these reconascience units actually carried "extra" men over and above the 2/3 man crew, as modeled in the game I have been unable to establish. And so wether or not the extra men would be fully protected from small arms fire I think may be uncertain. The origional "Carrier, Scout, MkI" (ie with a radio and third man radio operator) version had to have the sides especially built up to protect him.
Best regards Chuck.

The Carrier, Scout MkI had a crew of 4. The Commander's carrier had a crew of 3 and radio replacing the forth crew member.

[chuckfourth]

Hi TDR
Do you know if the British formation 330 "Mec Patrol" actually existed? That is with the particular 2-4 man dismountable groups? As far as I can find bren or universal carrier reconascience units crew stayed in the carriers ie as they would if they were crewing an armoured car say. The current formation looks more like lightweght armoured infantry than recon.
Best Regards Chuck.

[TDR]

chuckfourth said:
Hi TDR
Do you know if the British formation 330 "Mec Patrol" actually existed? That is with the particular 2-4 man dismountable groups? As far as I can find bren or universal carrier reconascience units crew stayed in the carriers ie as they would if they were crewing an armoured car say. The current formation looks more like lightweght armoured infantry than recon.
Best Regards Chuck.

I feel I have been through this argument before...

It’s long as there are constant changes and variances between Infantry, Motor and Armour. Not to mention the North Africa variances on top of that.

First much of this is associated with a structure called the Divisional Calvary Regiment and its derivations as the war progressed. Fundamentally they all served the same purpose reconnaissance for the Brigade or Division.

Anyway a brief start.

In 1939 there are the following Regiment structures: (I will only describe the functional Squadrons not the Admin/Support Squadron here)

Infantry Division, Divisional Calvary Regiment:
3 x Squadron each as:
HQ Troop
- 2 x VI light tanks
- 2 x carriers (Scout type)
- trucks (various) - possibly not important to the discussion
2 x Light Tank Troop
-3 x light tank VIs
4 x Carrier Troop
- 3 Carrier, Scout
-- Bren LMG, Boys ATR.
-- 1 x carrier commander with 3 man crew and radio set
-- 2 carriers with 4 man crew

1st Armoured Division - 1st Support Group
Here there is:
1 Rifle Brigade and 2 The King's Royal Rifle Corps
(these being mech infantry)
Structure for both being:
4 x Mech Compnay
-Coy HQ
-- wheeled vehicle
-- 1 x Bren LMg, 1 x ATR
-1 x Carrier Platoon
-- 11 x Carrier Scout
-- 11 LMG, Bren
-- 11 x ATR
-3 x Motorised Platoon
-- trucks - type unspecified
-- each platoon with:
--- 3x LMG, Bren
--- 3 x ATR
--- 1 x 2 inch mor

Hope that sort of clears things a bit. I could get the rest but its a long rewrite job.
Fundamentally a carier recon unit does not actually carry extra men. Each carrier is self contained with only its crew of 3 - 4 men and vehicle weapons.
The problem you are actually hitting is how do you represent the dismount state of these units vs the mounted state. Note in the dismount state the LMG/ATR could come of the vehicle..
So you have to look at the whole idea of do you represent both states or only one. To represent both states per vehicle will end up with an overload of men and weapons.

forgot this bit:
This is only part of the 39 - 40 options..

[chuckfourth]

Hi Andy
I am currently playing the British at Sidi Regiz and I was surprised to find that the "fictional" 'Mech inf coy' formations 002 and 003 still exist in the British OOB did you change your mind about nationalising them to nation 0 or perhaps an over sight?
My installation of the game reports patch 1.1b
Best Regards Chuck.

[Mobhack]

You will not have the new patch yet. Check Mobhack, formation No. 2 - start date in the new patch will be 1/42.

Andy

[chuckfourth]

OOPs sorry got my dates mixed up Sorry for the inconvienience.

[blitzkreig]

I've recently been reading an interesting book - "Dunkirk: Fight to the Last Man" - which highlighted some points regarding the UK OOB07 in 1939-1940 during the battle of France.

Chuckforth asked if there was any evidence that formation 330 (Mech Patrol) existed. The book includes several often amazing accounts on the activiites of British carriers in the Battle of France. One Lt Furness of the Welsh Guards won a VC in a carrier action in the retreat from Arras(Chp 14, p183-187). Lt Furness led 4 carriers and a light tank against several German MG postions which were covering the main escape route for the bn's soft skinned vehicles. Lt Furness' charge led to several MG postions being silenceced in order to allow the MT convoy to escape. The carrieres came under heavy small arms, MG & anti-tank fire but surprised the enemy by charging straight into their postions. The fighting was so fierce that Lt Furness was seen leaning out of his carreri fighting hand to hand with a German soldier who he eventually managed to dispatch with his revoler.

"of the ten men whose carriers took on the Germans four were killed, five wounded or taken prisernor"

Never the less his attack bought enough time for the convoy to escape.

Gameplay points:

1. The book indicates each (Lorried) Infantry Bn seems to have had a single carrier plt used for recon and many other tasks. They were armed with a mixture of Bren LMG, Rifles, grenades and anti-tank rifles with a dismounted capability that fits with Formation 330 (Uk Mech Patrol).

2. Not sure about the accuracy of the Mech Patrol dismounts weapons though. There wasn't a single refence to British use of issued SMGs. The Sten MK 1 didn't come into service until 1941 according to Jane's Gun Recognition Guide and I've never heard of a Lanchester SMG.


Sources:

Dunkirk: Fight to the Last Man by H. Sebag-Montefire published by Peguin ISBN -13:978-0-670-91082-3
ISBN-10: 0-670-91082-1

Jane's Gun Recognition Guide by I. Hogg (2nd ed), published by Harper Collins ISBN 0 00 472453 4