Really big games Version 2

I just posted a mod and a map (in scenario/mod archive) with lots of moons which will be the starting point for my next map. To have any point on the map within range 50 of any other point on the map, I will have to remove only 9 warp point links, add only 56 from regular systems to 24 feeder systems, then add six nexus systems and Central. Each feeder system connects to nine regular systems and one nexus system. Each nexus system connects to four feeder systems, the other five nexus systems, and Central. Central connects to six nexus systems, three regular systems to be carefully selected, and one link to secure systems. Seven secure systems will be created with no link to the map except the one through Central. That brings the total systems to 240 regular + 6 Nexus + Central + 7 secure = 254. I will post the map again at that point. Then I plan on adding lots of sphereworlds to half the capacity of the regular planets in the 14 added systems and posting again. Then I will follow the ten starting point plan (see really big games thread) for adding good large planets to make the final map with a ratio of three to one planet versus sphereworld capacity. Basically I am setting up a scenario where one player controlling 14 systems has one third the capacity of the remainder of the map, with 27 warp points leading to the regular systems, and one warp point leading to half his production in seven secure systems as a fallback position. This will make an interesting one versus all multiplayer game for whoever controls the nexus! Note that this map has a LOT more warp points than usual. See the patchsys file in the zip for how to get this. What I wanted was a map with good connection so that all empires could meet all others in the first 20-40 turns. LET THERE BE WARS! The friendly races will prosper from trade, and the power of the unfriendly ones will diminish over time as they fail to trade and fight too much.

To save the hassle of looking at another thread, I repeat the instructions from Remote Mining Economics here. You might want to revise these to add the repair bay to the original build since it does not cost much. My revised design at turn 60 in the map posted in the scenario/mod archive took only six turns to build. I verified that you CAN mine over a colonized planet. You get the production from all planets in the stack which have not yet been colonized. So colonize the proper atmosphere ones and mine the rest of the stack! Another bonus of remote mining is that your income from it is NOT included in what you TRADE to other empires. So you can keep them from gaining any new production advantages by mining and doing storage rather than building facilities. Later when you have finally depleted your mines, you can scrap emptied storage facilties and replace them with production.

Build battle cruiser yard ships. Each yard ship goes over a planet of the wrong atmosphere and builds a starbase with master computer III and one remote miner III RM3. It takes 4 turns and when built immediately do a retrofit to same with 3 RM3 plus one repair bay. Retrofit again to same with 7 RM3. Retrofit again to same with 13 RM3 and now 13 to repair. Next turn you have 8 working and the repair bay added. Retrofit to same with 22 RM3. Retrofit to same with 23 RM3 and one minelayer III which has space for 6 small mines. There are 16 to repair and the Last retrofit is done. Next turn the yard ship shifts to another planet and starts over. So it takes 4+3 = 7 turns per planet mined. Next turn your income is 800x23xtotal percentage of planet/ moons which is 184 per percent. Base maintenance is 5181 125 701. So breakeven is 29% total. Factor of ten profit per turn versus maintenance is 201% requiring moons, but who is that greedy? The base costs at least 42k minerals, but I did not bother to check how much more multiple refits make it. The planet is depleted one percent per turn. Calculate L = total percent minus 29. Then total percentage earned until you drained it down to breakeven is L*(L+1)/2.
Examples % = 39 gains 55 * 184 = 10k definitely not worth it
% = 59 gains 465* 184 = 85k about a factor of two minus initial is 1x.
% = 79 gains 1275 * 184 = 234k a factor of 5-1 but it takes 50 turns
% = 99 gains 2485 * 184 = 457k a factor of 10-1 takes 70 turns
Draining a 99 down to 59 is 40 turns at (40*41/2+30*40 = 2020) * 184 = 371k Which is a factor of 9-1 payback in 40 turns.
At 99% if you have the proper atmosphere on a large planet you can get yard + 19 * 1000 * 1.2 Jubiliant * .99 = 22572 per turn. At that rate it takes 14 turns to get the same minerals payback as the base gives in 40 turns. But it also takes 5 turns to build the yard and 19 more to reach full production. So call it 5+24 turns to get an equal payback. So if it will be 10 or more turns until you can plant a colony with the proper atmosphere, do the starbase. Now why would that be a factor ? Well it turns out that production from planets is part of your score. But production from remote mining is NOT!!!!!! To have an enormous minerals surplus while avoiding MEE you just need to learn minerals 3, battle cruisers, and bases 3. If you have the time you should also do yards 3, computers 3, repair 3, and mines 3, but the economics without them is almost the same.

I just posted the warp points connected Version of map7 as map7a in the scenario/mod archive. I ran a 25 turn test to see how the races from Version 1.41 with 1.72 TDM-Modpack would cope. Below are the stats at turn 25, which took two hours to play with all full AI on and computer controlled except Clays. Race name is followed by # of colony ships, # of systems seen, # planets can colonize, # planets colonize/breathe, then # wars/ # no treaty, # non aggression, # trade alliance, # trade and research, # military alliance, # partnership, and total # met.
Clays------- 2/248/2238/273 - 1/5/0/07/2/1/0 - 16
Abbidon-----2/079/0208/036 - 2/0/0/13/2/0/0 - 17
Amonkrie---2/058/0835/159 - 3/4/0/07/3/0/0 - 17
Colonials---1/085/0725/154 - 1/1/0/04/1/1/2 - 10
Cryslonite--1/129/0359/091 - 2/1/0/11/0/2/1 - 17
CueCappa--1/057/0459/090 - 1/2/1/11/2/1/0 - 18
Drushocka--0/098/1685/358 - 2/2/1/10/4/0/0 -19
Eee-----------1/248/0722/176 - 2/3/0/10/1/0/0 - 16
Krill------------2/063/0568/137 - 2/2/1/13/1/0/0 - 19
Narn-----------2/043/0401/079 - 1/2/0/06/5/1/0 - 15
Phong---------0/069/0578/138 - 1/3/0/07/5/1/0 -17
Piundan------2/046/0383/079 - 2/4/0/08/3/1/0 - 18
Pyrochette--1/032/0295/062 - 2/2/0/03/2/0/0 - 09
Rage-----------1/060/0453/050 - 3/7/0/08/0/0/0 - 18
Sallegra-------0/040/0418/079 - 1/0/0/10/5/1/0 - 17
Sergetti--------2/026/0211/047 - 3/3/0/08/1/0/0 - 15
Toltayan-------1/090/0765/147 - 2/1/0/08/5/2/1 - 19
Toron-----------0/007/0054/013 - 2/0/0/04/0/0/0 - 06
UkraTal--------2/066/0915/163 - 2/3/0/08/4/0/0 - 17
Xichung--------2/027/0227/054 - 2/2/3/07/0/0/0 - 14

The only ones doing non aggression are Xichung. But the Xichung are not supposed to make those trade alliances. So if you add an empire as a player, then change to full AI on and to computer controlled, it still does not use all the racial files properly. Presumably the default files are used instead. If you want an empire to use the race style, you must do an edit on the race after adding it to the players list and check both controlled by computer and using style from race. I just verified - saving the edit to file does NOT work, because the next time you add existing it defaults to player controlled again. That STINKS!

The Colonials and Toron have multiple copies of the same designs over and over again. No designs include supply storage for exploration. The Pyrochette may be just unlucky, because they DO have a design with storage. The next lowest is the Xichung at 14 of 20 met, not too bad for turn 25. The average excluding the three exceptions is 17.1, very good for turn 25 in a regular game, but about what I wanted and expected from this map.

I checked out the bug I have reported about culture modifiers not working. It is still there.
Workers - +5% production does NOT work
Warriers - -2% research and -2% intelligence works
Berzerkers - -2% SY rate, -5% research, -5% intelligence works but -5% production does NOT work
Merchants - -2% research works
Scientists - +5% research works
Zealots - -5% research works but -2% production does NOT work
Politicians - -5% production does NOT work
Engineers - +5% SY rate works
Basically modifers to overall production do NOT work for ANY culture. The other things I checked worked okay.

The next map posted will have the secure systems added with lots of sphereworlds. That will take a day or two.



[This message has been edited by LCC (edited 24 June 2001).]

[PsychoTechFreak]

quote:

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Originally posted by LCC:

I checked out the bug I have reported about culture modifiers not working. It is still there.
Workers - +5% production does NOT work
Warriers - -2% research and -2% intelligence works
Berzerkers - -2% SY rate, -5% research, -5% intelligence works but -5% production does NOT work
Merchants - -2% research works
Scientists - +5% research works
Zealots - -5% research works but -2% production does NOT work
Politicians - -5% production does NOT work
Engineers - +5% SY rate works
Basically modifers to overall production do NOT work for ANY culture. The other things I checked worked okay.

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I haven't noticed this so far... was it intended to be fixed with patch 6 ? The annoying thing about it: Now I have to workaround all my zealots, workers and so on to balance out the races again. *sigh*

I just posted a work of art in scenario/mod archive. Map8inprogress is map7a broken into 24 clusters artistically arranged. I did this today very reluctantly after four days of play testing showed that the AI could not cope with a maximum warp point linkage map. Besides taking up to three minutes per AI per turn after about turn 20, the map was covered in yellow territory conflict circles (empires systems to avoid maps). No AI was building colonies because their warships were being blown away in mutual conflict as soon as built. So the priority algorithm called for replacing warships rather than building colony ships. I did a ten turn check of this map8 with 20 empires loaded, Rage in Central home. The only conflict circles were in the Nexus, which was precisely what I wanted.

I withdraw my game challenge, because watching the AI the past few days has got me interested in race creation. I am going to spend the next week or two finishing up the map (only four of 15 nexus done). Then I am going to design a race which can survive and even prosper (against a human player) from a home in the nexus. My goal is to make it a tough game for even my experience level.

When I get the map done you might want to use it in a PBW game with the nexus owner given a 50 turn head start. That should be really challenging even against 19 other players. Hint - atmosphere nones not on warp points have five tech ruins, moons are for organics pop growth 40m/turn/colony while stars are for crystallines...
Helpful hint for map editor Users. When creating a moon, do NOT modify the name until you have done the other stuff. If you do it first, the name gets wiped entirely. If you do it Last, backspace deletes only one character at a time - what a relief!

Map editor wish list in no particular order after the first two :
1) As stated previously, I REALLY want a alphabetical sort option for systems in the add warp link. Last added is useful too, keep it as an option.
2) When a planet is added at the same location as another, default name to moon naming convention, not next planet.
3) Copy/paste planet with all moons from selected location to selected location, automatically renaming to next planet.
4) Copy/paste entire system with user specified name to specified location, modifying planet names etc automatically.
5) Copy/paste a star cluster with random system names created, modifying planet names etc to match.
6) Copy/paste from one map to another.
7) Random generation of planets and moons within a selected system adding another properly named each time selected (multiples 1,3,5,10), specifying the ranges as done in settings.txt.
8) Changing the default for a new planet to user specified default such as 150/150/150 optimal rather than 100/100/100 mild.
9) Shift entire star cluster tied to moving a system in the cluster.
10) Star cluster pattern library with auto select best configuration for existing warp links. Tough one, I know. I would be willing to make some patterns if credited.
11) Generate systemtypes specification mod file for a selected system.
12) Option to create the other end of a warp link automatically, placing it randomly in the destination system. Keep option to have one way warp points.
13) Option to show warp point names, grid etc on the map as in the game.
14) Option to have planet pictures automatically random select based upon planet type and atmosphere so it does not have to be specified EVERY SINGLE TIME.
15) Default warp point type to normal if not selected sidnhtbs EST.
16) Default sun to the first yellow star if not selected sidnhtbs EST..
17) If the planet type or atmosphere is changed without changing the picture, call for reselect the planet picture rather than ignoring the change.
Other than the above I LOVE the map editor. It beats the heck out of having to play just random generated quadrants.

That's about it off the top of my head. I have been up over 24 hours finishing the map star clusters, now I am going to get some sleep. If anybody else has some map editor wishes, post them here and I will send an email pointing to this thread (as though they are not already reading the Forum anyway)...

[Atrocities]

quote:

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Clays------- 2/248/2238/273 - 1/5/0/07/2/1/0 - 16
Abbidon-----2/079/0208/036 - 2/0/0/13/2/0/0 - 17
Amonkrie---2/058/0835/159 - 3/4/0/07/3/0/0 - 17
Colonials---1/085/0725/154 - 1/1/0/04/1/1/2 - 10
Cryslonite--1/129/0359/091 - 2/1/0/11/0/2/1 - 17
CueCappa--1/057/0459/090 - 1/2/1/11/2/1/0 - 18
Drushocka--0/098/1685/358 - 2/2/1/10/4/0/0 -19
Eee-----------1/248/0722/176 - 2/3/0/10/1/0/0 - 16
Krill------------2/063/0568/137 - 2/2/1/13/1/0/0 - 19
Narn-----------2/043/0401/079 - 1/2/0/06/5/1/0 - 15
Phong---------0/069/0578/138 - 1/3/0/07/5/1/0 -17
Piundan------2/046/0383/079 - 2/4/0/08/3/1/0 - 18
Pyrochette--1/032/0295/062 - 2/2/0/03/2/0/0 - 09
Rage-----------1/060/0453/050 - 3/7/0/08/0/0/0 - 18
Sallegra-------0/040/0418/079 - 1/0/0/10/5/1/0 - 17
Sergetti--------2/026/0211/047 - 3/3/0/08/1/0/0 - 15
Toltayan-------1/090/0765/147 - 2/1/0/08/5/2/1 - 19
Toron-----------0/007/0054/013 - 2/0/0/04/0/0/0 - 06
UkraTal--------2/066/0915/163 - 2/3/0/08/4/0/0 - 17
Xichung--------2/027/0227/054 - 2/2/3/07/0/0/0 - 14

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"WHAT!!!! No Illuminati???!!" I am most offended!!


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"We've made too many compromises already, too many retreats! They invade our space and we fall back -- they assimilate entire worlds and we fall back! Not again! The line must be drawn here -- this far, no further! And I will make them pay for what they've done!" -- Captain Picard STNG
New Age Ship Yards

I just finished a 25 turn test v1.41 with the same 19 TDM-Modpack v1.72 races as Last test, added as controlled by computer using selected race style in the unfinished map8 posted Last night with a ten good planet (all else default) start. I played the Clays in slot 1 home Central for five turns, then turned control over to full AI on using the AI of the Eee or the default (not sure about that). The table below gives score rank, then # contacted, #wars, #none, # NA, #TA, #TR, #MA, #P, then race name followed by my politics score. The effect of each item is given in parenthesis after it. For each war ten points are subtracted. For each race not contacted two points are subtracted. This is a penalty for timidity, because it is certain that in the nexus quadrant meeting the neighbors is not difficult. Failure to make a treaty is minus one. NA has no effect. Each TA is +1, TR +2, MA+4, P+8. The list is sorted by the politics score I assigned, not by game ranking because in the long run the treaty makers will have the economic power to overcome all war makers. The Ukra Tal, Cue Cappa, and Krill were no surprise, since I saw their treaty making ability in my Last game.

06-19(-00)/1(-10)/00(-00)/0/11(11)/2(04)/2(08)/3(24) Ukra Tal +37 met 4 TA 11
01-19(-00)/1(-10)/01(-01)/0/09(09)/4(08)/4(16)/0(00) Abbidon +22 met 8 TA 10
03-19(-00)/2(-20)/01(-01)/0/10(10)/3(06)/1(04)/2(16) Cue Cappa +15 met 4 TA 7
07-19(-00)/1(-10)/01(-01)/0/15(15)/1(02)/1(04)/0(00) Krill +10 met 8 TA 11
16-18(-02)/1(-10)/04(-04)/0/07(07)/4(08)/2(08)/0(00) Piundan +7 met 6 TA 10
10-19(-00)/2(-20)/02(-02)/1/09(09)/3(06)/1(04)/1(08) Cryslonite +5 met 7 TA 10

13-18(-02)/1(-10)/04(-04)/1/12(12)/0(00)/0(00)/0(00) Amonkrie -4 met 11 TA18
19-19(-00)/1(-10)/11(-11)/0/04(04)/2(04)/0(00)/1(08) Colonials -5 met 6 War 11
04-16(-06)/1(-10)/08(-08)/0/03(03)/3(06)/0(00)/1(08) Eee -7 met 4 War 8
14-17(-04)/0(-00)/12(-12)/0/04(04)/0(00)/1(04)/0(00) Drushocka -8 met 21 none
15-19(-00)/1(-10)/11(-11)/0/05(05)/1(02)/1(04)/0(00) Pyrochette -10 met 4 none
18-16(-06)/1(-10)/05(-05)/0/10(10)/0(00)/0(00)/0(00) Phong -11 met 19 TA 20
09-19(-00)/1(-10)/11(-11)/0/07(07)/0(00)/0(00)/0(00) Sallegra -14 met 8 none
02-19(-00)/1(-10)/12(-12)/0/06(06)/0(00)/0(00)/0(00) Rage -16 met 4 war 9
05-14(-10)/1(-10)/07(-07)/0/05(05)/1(02)/0(00)/0(00) Narn -20 met 4 war 15
17-19(-00)/2(-20)/11(-11)/0/04(04)/1(02)/1(04)/0(00) Toltayan -21 met 2 war 10
08-18(-02)/2(-20)/10(-10)/0/03(03)/2(04)/1(04)/0(00) Toron -21 met 9 war 16
12-16(-06)/1(-10)/12(-12)/0/03(03)/0(00)/0(00)/0(00) Sergetti -25 met 3 none
11-18(-02)/2(-20)/09(-09)/2/05(05)/0(00)/0(00)/0(00) Xi Chung -26 met 6 war 7
20-19(-00)/7(-70)/04(-04)/0/02(02)/1(02)/3(12)/2(16) Clays -42 myself

I would have played longer to see how things developed, but the stupid AI already lost one of my 10 homes, another is almost dead, and only a couple have more than a few defenses. I have only a few ships because they get blown away as soon as they are built. I am under attack by cruisers of seven empires and am doomed to die within ten turns. So much for using the regular AI strategy. It may take a few months, but I will try to develop an AI that can prosper in the nexus home. I will start on it as soon as I finish the map (1-2 weeks). When I get the map finished, it should be a good test bed for AI mod designs since you get more attacks in 25 turns than in 100 of a regular game. It took four hours to play 25 turns, so the game is definitely slower by at least a factor of two than the usual. But it is MUCH faster than map7a before I broke it into clusters. Almost all the conflict takes place in the six nexus and Central. Territory conflicts on the empires systems to avoid maps were minimal, and did not Last long. With ten systems per cluster most AI seem to be colonizing in their own cluster. The major exception is that the AI will go to colonize any ruins planets known before anything else. However for some reason I have yet to figure out the AI does NOT colonize the nexus. I tested my own empire in a game with nothing but neutrals. First it colonizes the unique tech ruins. Then it does the 5 tech ruins. Then it does the wrong atmosphere single tech ruins. Then it does the proper atmosphere moons, all small before tiny. Then it does the wrong atmosphere moons small then tiny. Then it leaves the nexus to colonize ruins. That was as far as I played, which took 60 turns. Occasionally it would break the pattern to colonize a ruins or a high value proper atmosphere planet outside the nexus. My goal is to make an AI that will stay in the nexus for 100-120 turns, then come roaring out to conquer the map.

I did a couple of tests with the Rage home in Central. They did NOT follow the pattern at all. I am not sure how this was accomplished, but it was obvious that they wanted to increase the number of systems claimed at the maximum possible rate. They also left the nexus to attack neutrals as soon as they sent explorer ships to the few unknown home systems. The ONLY unknown systems with the map as I have designed it will be the homes of other races. An ancient race cannot tell, but the missing home systems are immediately obvious to the Rage......

When the map is finished, you might want to play with the Rage as player #1 living in the Nexus and yourself living in a random cluster. They will have all tech quickly, but may not be able to withstand the assault of the other AI in the game. Try it and see.