Morris-Commercial C8 FAT

[chuckfourth]

Hi
Unit 104 in the British OOB, "Morris Quad GT" is modeled in the game as armoured actually It appears it was unarmoured.
Assuming that the "Morris Quad GT" is actually "Morris Commercial C8 FAT" Mk III.
See
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Morris_C8
amongst others.
Best Regards Chuck.

[PatG]

Interesting. Just to muddy the waters a bit:

http://www.sixtharmygroup.com/portal...467&highlight=

Of note is the second picture which refers to the gunner ducking inside the armoured cab to avoid shrapnel.

Perhaps the armoured C8 is the product of a poorly written press release.

The fourth photo is definitely armoured but not a canonical looking Quad vehicle.

Anyone have a ruler and access to a Quad?

[chuckfourth]

Hi Pat
If I might try to add some precipetous tinctures,

Ok Armoured Quad aside for the moment,
I think its pretty clear that the "Morris Commercial C8 FAT" Mk III isnt armoured all the references Ive been able to find confirm this. From a common sense point of view why would you armour the vehicle and leave the windows glass? without any armoured shutters, and if the limber, gun and gun crew arn't armoured whats the point of armouring the vehicle?

The armoured Quad Ive not seen before. It doesnt appear in any WWII pictures Ive ever seen, maybe its a post war development? or a one off? Also, it appears the rear 'tray' isnt armoured, this seems to have a canvas cover, so wether it is a field artillery tractor(FAT) is questionable. Lastly, the not inconsiderable extra weight of the armour would probably mean less ammunition for the gun and a less mobile gun tractor.

So... the armoured Quad clearly isnt the "Morris Commercial C8 FAT" so we dont need a ruler as they are two seperate vehicles. Even though the C8 may look armoured, even if it does have a steel cab, steel isnt armour.
It is still, however a beautiful vehicle.
Best regards Chuck.

[PatG]

Good morning Chuck

I dimly seeing other references to the Quads being armoured - might have in Squad Leader (not Advanced so yes a great while back) so your observation and preliminary evidence struck me as odd. A quick look around the web and the obvious glass problem pretty much supports what you are saying.

The second photo in the link I posted is intriguing as it says a stock Quad is armoured. We all know the level of knowledge your average reporter has about military equipment and we know how easily dead wrong "hard solid facts" can propagate through written material let alone the net, it is possible that this one picture is the source of the armoured Quad "myth".

Out of curiosity rather than criticism - One of our intrepid SPWW2ers with access to a ruler and a Quad can solve the problem easily. If the body is 1/16th sheet steel - then the average quad ain't armoured, <edit>25 mm <edit> plate - well then we have an interesting mystery to investigate.

yours in grognardism

Pat

[thatguy96]

PatG said:
The fourth photo is definitely armoured but not a canonical looking Quad vehicle.

The fourth vehicle on that page is the Canadian C15TA armored truck, which is not at all related to the Morris Quad or the similar type vehicles built by Chevrolet of Canada (Both the C15TA and Otter Armored Car were built by GM of Canada).

You have to wonder if the "armored" comment concerning the Quad came about because of its all metal, hard top body, in stark contrast to other trucks of the time, and even the soft rear General Service variant.

[cbo]

thatguy96 said:
You have to wonder if the "armored" comment concerning the Quad came about because of its all metal, hard top body, in start contrast to other trucks of the time, and even the soft rear General Service variant.

That is a good point. In "Moving the Guns", David Fletcher talks about "...an all-metal body which provided protection for the crew of six" when referring to the Guy Quad FAT. The prototype had a wooden body with canvas covers.

About the Morris FAT, he says: "...the pattern finally approved was all-steel with crew accomodation for six-men".

He does not mention anything about them being armoured, but considering how other military trucks of the day were either fully or partly open vehicles or had body parts made of wood, one can imagine how the idea of an "all-steel body" "protecting the crew" form the weather could transmorph into the notion that the vehicle was "armoured".

cbo

[PatG]

Yes it's a C15TA (says the highly embarrassed canuck who gets to spend father's day at the war museum photographing CMPs and other goodies.)

[PanzerBob]

Good day,

Thought I'd add my two cents worth in here since it's my Quads (with armour) that Chuck is trying to blow up. I just spent some time looking around and everything in can find makes no mention of the Quads being armoured, no matter whether built in the UK Canada or India. Studying some pictures of various Quads I see no evidence of this either. Now she does look damn military and "looks" like she should be armoured but alas NO, IMHO, is the final answer. I used the CMP Armoured Truck for comparison and on her you can tell she is plated. The ammo limber has no armour either.

The confusion is likely long standing; I've always assumed she had some armour as well.

Cheers

[cbo]

chuckfourth said:
Unit 104 in the British OOB, "Morris Quad GT" is modeled in the game as armoured actually It appears it was unarmoured.
Assuming that the "Morris Quad GT" is actually "Morris Commercial C8 FAT" Mk III.
See
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Morris_C8
amongst others.

Maybe I'm missing something, but where does it say anything about the Morris Quad being armoured or not?

I think its pretty clear that the "Morris Commercial C8 FAT" Mk III isnt armoured all the references Ive been able to find confirm this. From a common sense point of view why would you armour the vehicle and leave the windows glass? without any armoured shutters, and if the limber, gun and gun crew arn't armoured whats the point of armouring the vehicle?

That is some nice speculation, but again, where does it say anything about the Morris Quad being armoured or not?

I dont know whether whether the Morris Quad was armoured or not, but I think Pat has a valid point, speculation doesn't quite do the trick. To solve the riddle, you need some references which actually discuss the material and thickness of the cab or a measure of the cab itself, if possible.

As for partly armoured towing vehicles towing unarmoured guns, there are other examples. It is obviously rather difficult to armour a towed gun, but as long as the towing vehicle is capable of movement, you can at least move the gun out of harms way, even if it is damaged. So it might make some sense to put light armour the towing vehicle.

The picture Pat was referring to as apparently showing an armoured quad apparently pictures a Canadian Ford built gun tractor:

http://www.sixtharmygroup.com/portal..._1941_p_42.jpg

Somthing like this one:
http://www.oldcmp.net/qldfat12.html

The armoured Quad Ive not seen before. It doesnt appear in any WWII pictures Ive ever seen, maybe its a post war development? or a one off? Also, it appears the rear 'tray' isnt armoured, this seems to have a canvas cover, so wether it is a field artillery tractor(FAT) is questionable. Lastly, the not inconsiderable extra weight of the armour would probably mean less ammunition for the gun and a less mobile gun tractor.

What picture are you referring to?

If it is this one:
http://www.sixtharmygroup.com/portal...-scout-car.jpg

.. you are right, it is not a gun tractor, it is a Canadian produced C15TA armoured truck. AFAIK it was used as an APC, ambulance, radio vehicle and other purposes.

cbo

[DRG]

cbo said:Maybe I'm missing something, but where does it say anything about the Morris Quad being armoured or not?

Claus, In the wiki article it has "Armour -- none" just below crew and just above the engine specs.

There are a lot of comments in various sources about the Quad offering "protection" for the crew which is no doubt why it's been given a nominal (1) armour on the front, side and rear ( but not top ) since Day 1. If we want to model a vehicle with some kind of "protection" for the crew 1 point of armour is as low as we can go.

And yes, that other photo is indeed a Canadian C15TA armoured truck which is no relation at all to a Gun Quad

Don