Turtlers and Rushers?

[Atreidi]

It was not until I played a 500 province map that I remember reading something about players being turtlers and rushers.

I realize now that I am defently a turtle. I expand slow and give priority to building up my defence instead of expancion. I counter my slow expancion with high dominion and very high city defence.

I've tried different strategies but I think Im stuck being a slow-and-steady type of player. Is it like that for everyone? Are you either a Turtle (Defensive) or Rusher (offencive)?

The Defensive strategy works best for small maps and offencive on bigger ones, I've come to learn from my experience.

[MaxWilson]

Closer to offensive than defensive in the early game, because I hate losing the economic war and you need provinces for gems. Later on I turtle a bit as I'm doing research and building up resources for my second war, just because I find a never-ending offensive psychologically draining. I like to bite off a discrete chunk of war, finish it, and pause for a bit before beginning the next war.

-Max

[Sombre]

In my experience most dom players seem to be total turtlers. They like to sit back and research, build up etc before attacking someone clearly weaker, usually from fighting and usually with the help of another turtler ally or three.

Aggressive people often get ganked for being too big too early or are weakened by fighting and get outpaced by turtlers who were left alone to get too strong.

[Ironhawk]

Whether you turtle or rush depends on what nation you are playing. If you are playing a nation which blew all its scales for a huge bless on awesome sacreds then you need to attack without ceasing or you will lose. On the other hand if you are playing a nation with awesome, cheap researchers, then you will probably want to turtle for a long time until you have reached magical dominance.

Sombre, I think the pattern of play you have noticed is what occurs in most games... but your application of "turtler" to most players is excessive. After all, a player which is too agressive will be ganged. But a player who turtles too often will be dwarfed by more aggressive neighbors. I have found most dom players to be a mix of the two.

[chrispedersen]

...wears a "I am not a turtle!" lapel pin!

[OmikronWarrior]

I'd say, in general, turtling really doesn't exist in Dominions "gameplay" (in quotes for a reaon to be revealed later). Turtling means not playing slow per se, but investing in your defense. And defense comes in three forms: PD, forts, and a few globals. The globals aren't viable to late game, so I'd say they're not a real turtle defense. PD in general is weak and certainly won't stop any reasonably supported army or equiped SC. That leaves forts, but unless you find a choke point they're too expensive to use in that capacity.

That being said, one can still turtle using "diplomacy." Just make a lot of NAPs, buy players off and otherwise keep your nation safe and hope nobody decides to attack.

[fantasma]

I'd say that defense is something else but PD and forts. It means more like holding important border provinces with armies ready to destroy invaders rather than using the armies to attack.

Nobody will survive long with only forts and PD.

The point is rather - and as almost everything else in Dominions - depending on the situation.

If you have good troops and poor perspectives when research starts to be important you have to be a rusher.

If you miss sufficient gems of a particularly important kind you have to expand to find income.

If you came out of the box ahead with a decent income and mages that profit from research you'll be better off guarding what you have - for a while.

If you are in a decent position and have potential for the endgame, I think it's best to pick the oportunities that will show up inevitably.

[MaxWilson]

OmikronWarrior said:
I'd say, in general, turtling really doesn't exist in Dominions "gameplay" (in quotes for a reaon to be revealed later). Turtling means not playing slow per se, but investing in your defense. And defense comes in three forms: PD, forts, and a few globals. The globals aren't viable to late game, so I'd say they're not a real turtle defense. PD in general is weak and certainly won't stop any reasonably supported army or equiped SC. That leaves forts, but unless you find a choke point they're too expensive to use in that capacity.

IMHO, PD + Lab + Mages (doing research) is a better defense than a fort. Forts make better factories, but unforted provinces let researchers synergize with PD.

-Max

[Ironhawk]

OmikronWarrior said:
I'd say, in general, turtling really doesn't exist in Dominions "gameplay" (in quotes for a reaon to be revealed later).

Oh, you can definitely turtle in dominions. Tho perhaps not as easily as games like MOO or Civ. In dominions, turtling really only comes naturally to Underwater nations, since they have the water-barrier to act as a virtual wall on all thier provinces. Beyond that, there are a handful of nations which are ok for turtling. Is there still a CTis version with Miasma dominion? They were the best land turtler, if there still is one. The other nations with nasty dominion effects as well.

[JimMorrison]

Atreidi said:
It was not until I played a 500 province map that I remember reading something about players being turtlers and rushers.

I realize now that I am defently a turtle. I expand slow and give priority to building up my defence instead of expancion. I counter my slow expancion with high dominion and very high city defence.

I've tried different strategies but I think Im stuck being a slow-and-steady type of player. Is it like that for everyone? Are you either a Turtle (Defensive) or Rusher (offencive)?

The Defensive strategy works best for small maps and offencive on bigger ones, I've come to learn from my experience.

Playing a lot of strategy games in SP mode teaches you to turtle. AIs universally tend to be hyperaggressive, and you eventually learn that an unassailable defense means that -anything- that you accumulate over time is an advantage over the computer who is flailing impotently against your walls.

I found that win Dom3, even in SP, the best way to force yourself to understand aggression, is to learn how to build an awake SC. Bear in mind, at first you probably won't do it right, and he'll get afflicted and/or die within the first several turns. After several tries, experimenting with Fear, and Awe, and easily accessed buffs, you will start to get the hang of it. But the trick is to force yourself to use the SC to take a constant string of territories, while still performing your normal expansion attacks with your other forces. So for example as a nation and/or player that tends to just take 1 province per turn for the first year, try to keep yourself gaining 2 per turn, with the aid of your SC.

Then you get to experience the next frustrating thing, being slightly overextended and having 2-3 AIs suddenly declare war on you on opposite sides of your empire before you can get forts in place on your front lines to hold them off.