Dealing with an early N9 E9 Niefel Giant rush

[Epaminondas]

What is the best way to deal with an early N9 E9 Niefel Giant rush? Presume that you don't have access to high-level summons or spells that can insta-kill. I see this as an almost impossible proposition. A max Nature and Earth Bless Niefel GIant will re-generate hit points and fatigue at a high rate, and the cold aura won't let your units do enough damage before they die off. The Hinnom giant sacreds may be the only units that can compete mano-a-mano, but my tests consistently show that they lose in an even-number match-ups (and you can't amass as many anyways, due to the pop eating problems and the high resource requirements). Androphag Archers seem to work okay with low Nature Bless Niefel Giants, but max Nature Bless Giants re-generate too fast. Are you pretty much doomed if you start off next to Niefelheim, and he targets you with a max Nature and Earth Bless Niefel Giants?

[Illuminated One]

A combination of lots of javelins, strength of giants (alt 1) and rust mist (evo 2 or 3) should work quite well. Don't know if thats's enough to stop a determined rush though.

[archaeolept]

e9n6 burning ones hiding in their own strong dominion

[OmikronWarrior]

It's not a direct counter, but Niefleheim has some of the worst PD in the entire game. A mere one milita grade giant per 2 points of PD. So, attack on as broad a front as possible (stealth troops a big help here) and make his economy cry. E9N9 is horrendously expensive in scales, and such armie can only be in a few places at once.

[Epaminondas]

Originally Posted by OmikronWarrior

It's not a direct counter, but Niefleheim has some of the worst PD in the entire game. A mere one milita grade giant per 2 points of PD. So, attack on as broad a front as possible (stealth troops a big help here) and make his economy cry. E9N9 is horrendously expensive in scales, and such armie can only be in a few places at once.

Good point about the PD, but sometimes you get pressured with no breathing room for your own offensive sallies. Also, Niefelheim can get a double max Bless relatively cheaply, because of their max cold Scale bonus.

[vfb]

E9N9 is not too expensive in scales in CB1.3 with a master druid. You can get an imprisoned Dom-6 F2E9N9 master druid with Order-3,Prod-1,Cold-3,Mis-2,Drain-2.

Once the giants go berserk, they will accumulate fatigue. You might be able to skelly spam fast enough the giants will eventually die, since they can't kill the skeletons fast enough.

Their armor is not magical, so Destruction (or Armor of Achilles if you can keep the giants off your mage) will help.

Curse them if you can.

[HoneyBadger]

Correction: Niefelheim has *the* worst PD in the game, so OmikronWarrior is exactly right-hit them on multiple fronts. And remember, Niefelheim can't produce that many of their "unstoppable" armies, so figure out where they're going to land on you, and put them through as much hell as you can.

I actually prefer E9 N8 for Niefel. Berserk is great, but not so great for Jarls, especially since I like mixing as many H2 priests in with the regular Niefels as possible, for Sermon of Courage. Combined with Bless, that's +4 to Morale, +6 in my own Dominion-more than enough to compensate for a lack of Berserk on my Sacreds.

That said-if you can skellyspam them, or use other low level undead, that should slow Niefels down long enough to make your archers and javelineers count. Don't ignore your own PD either, the more troops you can hit them with, the better your chances.

Curse spam is a nice idea, combined with low level evocation spells, since a wounded Niefel is a weaker Niefel, and Curse can't be cured.

You also might want to pay for some Ice Drakes-to hold the Niefels down, and Fire Drakes-to damage them. It's expensive, but enough of them in Niefel's way, used properly, will hurt-and they're low level summons available to everyone.

[K]

Originally Posted by Epaminondas

Are you pretty much doomed if you start off next to Niefelheim, and he targets you with a max Nature and Earth Bless Niefel Giants?

It depends heavily on your nation.

In a Heat 3 province, a Neifle giant has an attack skill of 9 and defense of 10 as well as a Protection of 9, and than means that even with regen normal national troops can kill them pretty easily. Heck, archers on fire large monster do a good enough job.

If you are unlucky enough to fight them in a Cold 3 province, you need to get trickier. Some things that work are:

1. Stop them from Blessing. If you have fliers of any kind, you might be able to screw up their scripting long enough that they won't be able to bless their units. Assassinating the commander also works.

2. A pile of mages. Lots of low level spells work wonders when six or seven guys are spammming them. Take Sleep, for example: A hit and failed save on a Neifle giant is him being boned if he gets into combat. Spells like Rust Mist, Armor of Achilles, Acid Bolt, and Destruction also allow you to destroy their armor and allow your army to take them out easily. Since he is fielding low numbers of units, you don't need to hit too many times with spells to make him regret rushing you. Even spells like Slime can be devastating to Neifle giants.

3. Massive and fast damage. Calvary and lots of Bless chassis are made to do this, so it is pretty easy ti get together.

[Huzurdaddi]

There is an existing thread on this topic.

There were various counters proposed but in general: hold onto your butt. There are very few, if any tactics which can stop them, skelly spam being the only servicable option at low research levels (and even this may not work, depending upon various factors).

As others have noted: their PD is amazingly bad.

[Epaminondas]

Originally Posted by Huzurdaddi

There is an existing thread on this topic.

There were various counters proposed but in general: hold onto your butt. There are very few, if any tactics which can stop them, skelly spam being the only servicable option at low research levels (and even this may not work, depending upon various factors).

As others have noted: their PD is amazingly bad.

Thanks for the thread reference, but the topic is not really identical. That thread assumes options once most spells have been researched and hence lists counters that I too am aware of. My question had to do with early game options, when few spells are researched, and you have to manage with national units, low level spells and items.