Italian CV light tank

[cyberdisc]

The discussion with Sicut Leones and Basileus Romaion (NWI members) generates the following considerations:

CV-33/35 LF:
Only one of the Twin 8mm MG (the left one) was removed and replaced by a Flamethrower.
So the CV-33/35 LF should retain one 8mm MG, but with less munition becouse the room occupied by the flamethrower stuff (about 240 round less).
In summary the overall HE KILL should be decreased beacuse the single MG, but the ammos, although less, should be enough for more shots compared to the twin version.
Also the CV-33 had a Flamethrower version.

CV-33/35:
The CV-33 mount a twin 6.5mm in winSPWW2, but only the very first version mounted a (single) FIAT 6.5mm mod.14 MG (like the CV-29).
Soon (in 1934) it was replaced by twin 8mm:
-FIAT mod.35 (ROF 450round/min, ~2400 rounds, effective range 1000m, 750m/s mv) or
-Breda mod.38 (ROF 450round/min, ~3200 rounds, effective range 500m, 775m/s mv)
The Breda model start to replace the Fiat from 1939 (but the replacement were not fully completed)

CV-33/35 AT:
Some CV-33/35 had "one" (by Pignato, "both" by other sources) of the MG replaced by The Solothurn 20mm (ROF 15 to 20 per minute).
The AP capability is controversial, but different from the winSPWW2 value:
- 41mm@100m and 18mm@300m (by Pignato)
- 35mm@300m (probably a mistake 300ft~100m)
see here for example:
http://www.jaegerplatoon.net/AT_RIFLES2.htm
http://www.ww2incolor.com/forum/showthread.php?t=3357
Probably AP 4 is not far from the reality for point blank (instead 3).

Paper Sources:
- Italian Armored Vehicles In WWII" by F. Pignato
- Fronte Terra. Carro veloce 33-35 evoluzione del mezzo 2/1.

bye
cd

[DRG]

Do me a favour. Read the error reporting guidlines then apply them to your reports.

Is there a "CV-33/35 LF" in the game ? NO there is not. The IS a CV-35 LF unit 61 and telling us that , rather than hunting for it or guessing is SO MUCH easier.

Yes ?

Don

[cyberdisc]

I'm sorry for the misunderstanding. I will try to restate.


CV-35 LF (unit 61) italian oob34:
Only one of the Twin 8mm MG (weapon 222, the left one) was removed and replaced by a Flamethrower (weapon 108).
So the CV-35 LF should retain one 8mm MG, but with less munition becouse the room occupied by the flamethrower stuff (about 240 round less).
In summary the overall HE KILL should be decreased beacuse the single MG, but the ammos, although less, should be enough for more shots compared to the twin version.
Also the CV-33 had a Flamethrower version.

CV-33(unit 002) & CV-35(unit 060) italian oob34:
The CV-33 mount a twin 6.5mm in winSPWW2 (weapon 227), but only the very first version mounted a (single) FIAT 6.5mm mod.14 MG (weapon 218,like the CV-29, unit 001).
Soon (in 1934) it was replaced by twin 8mm:
-FIAT mod.35 (weapon ???,ROF 450round/min, ~2400 rounds, effective range 1000m, 750m/s mv) or
-Breda mod.38 (weapon 222, ROF 450round/min, ~3200 rounds, effective range 500m, 775m/s mv)
The Breda model start to replace the Fiat from 1939 (but the replacement were not fully completed)

CV-33(20) unit032, italian oob34:
Some CV-33 and CV-35 had "one" (by Pignato, "both" by other sources) of the MG replaced by The Solothurn 20mm (weapon 141).

Corrige: Actually the Solothurn replace both the MG or is mounted externally and so the MGs are untouched.

The AP capability is controversial, but should be different from the winSPWW2 value:
- 41mm@100m and 18mm@300m (by Pignato)
- 35mm@300m (probably a mistake: 300ft~100m)
see here for example:
http://www.jaegerplatoon.net/AT_RIFLES2.htm
http://www.ww2incolor.com/forum/showthread.php?t=3357
Probably AP 4 is not far from the reality for point blank (instead 3).

Paper Sources:
- Italian Armored Vehicles In WWII" by F. Pignato
- Fronte Terra. Carro veloce 33-35 evoluzione del mezzo 2/1.

bye
cd

[chuckfourth]

Hi cd
Heres something I posted earlier, would you be able to tell me if your references agree with anything I have said here?
Id also be interested in any effective ranges for the various vehicles.
"Firstly unit 501 CV-35 [37] apparently was never manufactured,
see
http://www.vojska.net/eng/world-war-2/armor/l3-35/
and
http://www.wwiivehicles.com/italy/ta...v-33-cv-35.asp
Looking at the other tankettes I can find no evidence that these other configurations existed either,
unit 2 CV-33, unit 368 CV-29 Ricerca and unit 369 CV-33 Ricerca. The 6.5 mm MGs were all fitted singly these have pairs of 6.5 MGS.
unit 503 CV-38 [20]. Can't find anything for a 20mm AT gun plus a MG.
unit 504 CV-38 CC. only a single 20mm AT was fitted not 2.
unit 505 CV-38/Brixia. possibly a brixia motar could be carried but it would probably have to be dismounted to be used.
unit 506 CV-38 [13.2]. only one 13.2 MG was carried not 2.
Also for unit 500 CV-35 [20] I dont know if ayone can confirm this one way or the other but Im guessing it probably had a sight and so may deserve better than 10 for range."
Thanks in advance Chuck.

[cyberdisc]

Firstly unit 501 CV-35 [37] apparently was never manufactured...

Till now I haven't any clue for this model. But those CV tankette had a lot of "on field" modifications.

...Looking at the other tankettes I can find no evidence that these other configurations existed either...

unit 2 CV-33

existed but with:
a single Fiat 6.5mm mod.14, the so called "I Version" soon refitted with a twin 8mm MG.
see my previous post of this thread.

unit 368 CV-29 Ricerca and unit 369 CV-33 Ricerca. The 6.5 mm MGs were all fitted singly these have pairs of 6.5 MGS.

AFAIK, all CV-29 had only a sigle 6.5mm MG.
I'm not aware of any "Ricerca" denomination for those vehicles.
In winSPWW2 it's slight different from the "father" version, but I don't know what "real" CV version they want to represent.

unit 503 CV-38 [20]. Can't find anything for a 20mm AT gun plus a MG.

AFAIK, the only AT weapon for this tankette was the Solothurn, in the two configurations I wrote in the corrige.(see also a picture posted by Sicut Leones here:
http://www.netwargamingitalia.net/fo...?t=9447&page=2)

unit 504 CV-38 CC. only a single 20mm AT was fitted not 2.

Again, I'm not aware of the existence of such CV configuration.

unit 505 CV-38/Brixia. possibly a brixia motar could be carried but it would probably have to be dismounted to be used.

Existed, it's an "on field modification" and the Brixia mortar is mounted(fixed) externally (there is a picture in the Pignato book)

unit 506 CV-38 [13.2]. only one 13.2 MG was carried not 2.

Existed, and only one MG is correct (again see Pignato).

Also for unit 500 CV-35 [20] I dont know if ayone can confirm this one way or the other but Im guessing it probably had a sight and so may deserve better than 10 for range."

See my answer for the unit 503 for the armament.
Anyway if the 20mm L65 BGun (weapon 229) is the 20mm Breda 35 L65 the effective range should be more: Tarrif.net claim 2000m for AP (well, 1mm penetration...) and Pignato speaks of 5500m...

Thanks in advance Chuck.

You are welcome.

[chuckfourth]

Hi Cyberdisc,
Thanks very much for the info. The first "maybe", unit 501 CV-35 [37] is actually a production vehicle that was never produced rather than a field conversion.
Best Regards Chuck.

[narwan]

Some of these are field modifications, not production vehicles. Most of these were done by the forces in east africa which had only a handful of medium tanks. They converted light armor by adding weapons with some AT capacity. Information is hard to come by, the Italian side of the operations in east-africa is hardly the most well documented aspect of ww2. So the lack of mention of these in sources that are based on production models or field modifications in the north african desert shouldn't be taken as proof of non-existence.
Unfortunately I don't have sources available myself on these vehicles.

Narwan

PS the brixia version was likely just a single model converted in east africa.

[cyberdisc]

Hi Again CD
Not sure if the spanish order was filled or not. ie are you saying that only the one prototype was ever produced for 20mm Breda M35 L65 armed cv?
Best Regards Chuck.

The order wasn't filled becouse they (the Nationalist HQ) at the end preferred the PzI refitted with the same 20mm Breda gun (unit present in the spanish oob33 as PzKfpw I/20 [unit 291]), so AFAIK only a prototype of the CV with Breda gun was build. From Wiki (Franco Lucas Molina, "Panzer I" as a reference):
"The Panzer I was upgraded in order to increase its lethality. On 8 August, 1937, Major General Garcia Pallasar received a note from Generalissimo Francisco Franco which expressed the need for a Panzer I (or negrillo, as their Spanish crews called them) with a 20-millimeter gun. Ultimately, the piece chosen was the Breda Model 1935, due to the simplicity of the design over competitors such as the German Flak 30. Furthermore, the 20mm Breda was capable of perforating 40 millimeters of armor at 250 meters (1.57 in at 275 yd) (but AP 3 for SPWW2 and also for tarrif.net, [ndr]), which was more than sufficient to penetrate the frontal armor of the T-26. Although originally forty Italian CV.35 light tanks were ordered with the Breda in place of their original armament, this order was subsequently canceled after it was thought adaptation of the same gun to the Panzer I would yield better results. Prototypes were ready by September 1937 and an order was placed after successful results. The mounting of the Breda in the Panzer I required the original turret to be opened at the top and then extended by a vertical supplement. Four of these tanks were finished at the Armament Factory of Sevilla, but further production was canceled as it was decided sufficient numbers of Republican T-26 tanks had been captured to fulfill the Nationalist leadership's request for more lethal tanks. The Breda modification was not particularly liked by German crews, as the unprotected gap in the turret, designed to allow the tank's commander to aim, was found to be a dangerous weak point."

Should be noted that the no "weak point" is present in SPWW2, but instead a more protected turret is considered (2 for unit 291 instead 1 of the other Pz I).

Some of these are field modifications, not production vehicles. Most of these were done by the forces in east africa which had only a handful of medium tanks. They converted light armor by adding weapons with some AT capacity. Information is hard to come by, the Italian side of the operations in east-africa is hardly the most well documented aspect of ww2. So the lack of mention of these in sources that are based on production models or field modifications in the north african desert shouldn't be taken as proof of non-existence.
Unfortunately I don't have sources available myself on these vehicles.

Narwan

PS the brixia version was likely just a single model converted in east africa.

From the Pignato book "Italian Armored Vehicles In WWII":
"In the fall of 1940 few tankettes were rearmed with either the 20MM Solothurn S18-1000 or S-18-1100 1000 anti-tank rifle, or the 12.7mm Breda-SAFAT heavy machine gun(an aircraft mg present in the oob34 (should be the weapon 163). I forgot to mention in my previous posts that this CV doesn't appear in the italian oob34 [ndr])
Other tankettes received 45mm Brixia infantry support mortars, while a number were also fitted with an antiaircraft machine gun bracket."

So the plural is used by Pignato for all those CV modifications and although not exactly specified ("few","a number", etc...).

In particular the picture in the book shows two CV with the brixia mortar. This picture and also the one showing the CV with the 20mm AT, are both taken in North Africa.

Unfortunately i haven't a direct access to the book "Fronte Terra. Carro veloce 33-35 evoluzione del mezzo 2/1." which should contain a lot of details (90pp dedicated only to the CVs).

[narwan]

Thanks for that info CV. The only thing I heard previously on the brixia version was of a report mentioning a single conversion in east africa.

Could I place a request with you guys? I've been digging into the sahariana formation (a few years ago already) and I'm pretty sure the game shows some vehicles in it that probably didn't exist or are not modelled correctly (like AS-42's with flak guns for use against ground targets instead of as actual flak vehicles). But I haven't got any conclusive data on that. Unfortuantely I don't speak Italian so those sources aren't available to me. You think you can find someone interessed in looking into this?

Narwan