Co Ricognitori

[chuckfourth]

Hi
Now Im not sure if this is a bug or a feature, but if you buy Italian formation 083 "Co Ricognitori" Unit/Formations 3 and 4 offer you a series of vehicles. 5 out of 8 of the vehicle offered cant carry the scouts in the platoon leaving the unwary player(me) with two scout sections on the start line.
Best Regards Chuck.

[DRG]

Well then I guess you'll be checking carry capacity from now on won't you Chuck ??

Funny thing is there are only so many classes we can split things up into or duplicate units we can make to accommodate the people who b*tch and complain when we assign "generic" carry capacity's to vehicles to accommodate the "game reality" that a unit is a unit and you cannot split a unit to fit nicely into every vehicle. You'd be the FIRST one to complain if we gave every scout vehicle a 5 carry capacity but that's what has to be done to make things like this work otherwise we end up with problems just like this

Tell me please you understand this now

Don

[chuckfourth]

Hi Don
Thanks for replying.
Before I take my understanding oath, can I just check that I actually do understand your explanation?

When a formation is put together each slot is a paticular unit class ('scout vehicle' in this example) so all the units for that class (and time and nation) appear in the pick list for that slot for that formation.
Looking at the class list (that appears in help) there are a lot of infanty clones that appear to be nation specific ('Rangers' for example). Arnt these redundant? You -already- know what nation your dealing with, cant you just use the class that the ranger clone is a copy off?
I ask because as you say your out of classes, If you could claw a few back this way, would you be able to fix this and similar carrying capacity "problems"? you'd also be able to model the all smoke firing cruiser support tank, dual drive armoured cars, give the infantry support guns their smoke ammo (75mm KwK 37 L/24 is a good example) ect ect.
I dont know what you mean by "duplicating" a vehicle.
I dont understand how the OOB designers benefit from all the clones either.

For the Italian scout vehicles here is an interesting link
http://www.afrikakorps.org/camionettasaharianaas42.htm
It might be better to lower the size of the carried Esploratori to 2 men rather than raise the vehicle carry capacity to 5.

Best regards Chuck.

[DRG]

At no time did I say the problem was related to being out of classes. DO NOT twist my words. Twisting what people say to further an argument is trolling and will be treated as such

I am in the final stages of checking and assembling a patch for winSPMBT. As much as I'd like to take the time and explain OOB construction I'm going to leave that to someone else on this forum who perhaps hasn't lost all patience with you. IDK who that might be though. With that said the AS-42 would benefit from being a different unit class which would segregate it thereby keeping other "scout vehicles" out of formations built specifically for the AS-42 so that has now been done solving the "problem" of low carry capacity AS-42's being mixed in with higher carry capacity units.

You might want to explain to this person what you are going on about when referring to "infantry support guns their smoke ammo (75mm KwK 37 L/24 is a good example)" Apparently along with all these other things you "dont understand " how smoke ammo is given out is one of them OR how to properly report a perceived "error" even though the error reporting procedures have been in place for quite a while. The "7.5cm KwK37 L24" ( as it is known in the game..... do I need to explain why that deviates from the "official" norm because of in built game constraints for weapon name length as well ??? ) is mounted on quite a number of units in the game all of which carry varying amounts of smoke ammo


Don

[chuckfourth]

Hi Don

Actually Im not trying to report errors here. These are just 3 examples of how some new classes could be of use. The 'problems' have already been reported as per your error reporting procedures in the relevant threads. Heres some relevant stuff from each thread for your convienience.

from the old DOS forum.
For reversing armoured cars
from Message #21246 in the old DOS forum by Claus B

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"The German SdKfz 233 and 234 8-wheelers could go equally fast in both directions as could the the 6-wheel SdKfz 231, but only the few vehicles built by Magirus. The bulk of the 6-wheelers were Mercedes-Benz and they could only go half as fast in reverse as forward, but had the reverse drivers position. The same applied to the few 6-wheelers built by Büssing. The French Panhard 178 had reverse steering and could go half as
fast in reverse as forward. Among the British armoured cars, Daimlers had reverse steering as well. IIRC the Daimler scout car did not have reverse steering but could go equally fast forward and reverse, it was just the driver who did the driving in both cases. The Alvis-Straussler armoured cars also had reverse steering and the same design was used in the Hungarian Csaba armoured car, used on the eastern front. Some Swedish armoured cars from Landsverk also had reverse steering and were used by the Dutch, Danish and Norwegian armies."
************************************************** *****************

ie All the German 8 wheelers seem to go equally well in both directions.
ie a new class might allow these vehicles none or less movement penalties when reversing as appropriate.

and two from this forum, first Crusader CS tanks form
http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/showthread.php?t=29728

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From this site
http://www.btinternet.com/~ian.a.pat...rmourtanks.htm
For the A9
"To fulfill this role the CS (Close Support) version was developed, with a 3.7-in Howitzer replacing the 2-pdr, it could fire a 4.77kg smoke shell instead. An HE shell was also produced, but was in short supply in North Africa. When 3 RTR went to Calais in May 1940, they got there only to find that the HE shells, for their A9 CS tanks, had been left on the dockside in the UK."
For the A10
As with the A9 a CS (Close Support) version was developed in parallel with the main tank. It was armed with a 3.7-in Mortar (Howitzer) OQF MK I, which was a single shot weapon and could only fire smoke. In battle the CS versions would accompany the Squadron Headquarters of the tank regiment protecting the gun tanks with smoke screens for them to manoeuvre. Only 30 CS versions were built.
For the A13
The CS version, of the A13 MK IV, was again fitted with a 3.7-in Mortar (Howitzer) OQF MK I which was a single shot weapon and could only fire smoke. This was rapidly becoming a disadvantage and this was the last tank to be fitted with it.
This Site goes on to detail that the A13 Mk II CS didnt have MGs.
http://www.wwiivehicles.com/unitedki...ser/mk_iv.html
From
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cruiser_Mk_I
A9
"Had a 3.7" (94mm) howitzer installed in the turret. This gun only fired smoke rounds, 40 of which were carried."
From
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cruiser_Mk_II
THE A10
"Had a 3.7" (94 mm) howitzer in the turret instead of the 2 pdr. The standard ammunition load was 40 rounds smoke, and a few HE shells"
also in the thread is this exchange.
************************************************** ******************

So a new class might make it possible to give these vehicles their correct ammo loadout.

And second for the German short 75 from
http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/showthread.php?t=29772

************************************************** ******************
For instance when buying a single Zug of PZ IIIn only the first command tank has smoke rounds, same for the 234/3, in the pzgrndr armored coy none of the sdkfz 251/9 have smoke rounds. I wonder if this could be remedied?
************************************************** ******************

I can still buy in the latest version of the game, pz3n, sdkfz 233, 234/3, 251/9 and 250/8 all armed with the 75mm L24 but without smoke rounds? unit 0 has some for pz3n, 233 and 234/3.
AS I say, just examples Im sure a lot could be done with some new classes.
Best Regards Chuck.

[Mobhack]

The classes are a byte field.

All values of the byte are used.

Changing it to an int would trash all data in the game - scenarios, OOBs, the lot.

It is not going to happen.

Andy

[chuckfourth]

Hi Don
well if you did want to give the German short 75mm guns their smoke rounds, heres how you could do it using the classes that already exist.
The panzer 3n as used in the tiger formations.
These have their own class (129) unused in any other Countries OOB I believe adding the smoke for class 129 is on your todo list amyway.
pz3m AFAIK wasnt used as a CS tank in tiger coys and so probably shouldnt be in class 129.

The 2 short 75mm armed 8 wheelers (sdkfz 233 and 234/3 units 591, and 074) appear in 3 formations 071 "PzSpaehZug (sw)", 218 "PzAufkl-UstZg", 229 "PzSpaeh Trp(sw)"
Ignoring formation 229, 071 and 218 are virtually identicle so we could leave all the other 'gun' 8 wheelers in 071 and remove them from 218 leaving just the 2 75mm armed ACs in 218. Then put 233 and 234/3 into class 104 CS Cruiser Tank and make Formation 218 select its vehicles from class, 104.
This gives these vehicles their smoke, though they are now called 'CS Cruiser Tank's, small price to pay. In the British OOB the M3 (105) halftrack is also misnamed a 'CS cruiser tank' for the same reasons. possibly the class could be remamed 'CS vehicles' or similar.

251/9
For 251/9 Its CS class 127 "Gun APC tracked" (containing only 2 251/9s) would need to have smoke added to non 0 units, same as the CS tank class. In the other OOBs this means you may need to move vehicles out of class 127 into class 125, 'Gun APC (halftrack)' (empty in all OOBs other than german) and then link class 125 to the moved units formation instead of 127.
The units that would be moved from 127 to 125 are
Polish LWP; 219 Taczanka
Australia/new zealand; 134 - Bren Carrier, 223 - Bren Carrier, 225 - Boyes Carrier
India; 223 - Bren Carrier
Belgium; 363 - Bren Carrier
Norway; 363 - Bren Carrier
Canada; 363 - Bren Carrier
Romania; has a 251/9 in the class, it can remain.
GB; 453 - Bren Carrier, 456 - PIAT Carrier

The formations to be linked to class 125 are
Polish LWP; formation 056 Taczanka Pl
Australia/new zealand; formations 035 Mortar Sec/M4, 081 Carrier Platoon, 086 Carrier Section, 097 2 Bren Carriers, 330 Mech Patrol
India; formations 033 Bren Carriers, 096 Carrier Platoon,330 Mech Patrol, 331 Motor Company
Belgium; formations 019 Mortar Sec/M, 330 Mech Patrol, 331 Motor Company+, 332 Motor Company+
Norway; formations 029 Mortar Sec/M, 070 BR FOO, 072 BR Carrier Sec
Canada; formations 014 Mortar Sec/M, 329 Mech FO Team, 330 Mech Patrol, 331 Motor Company
Romania; has a 251/9 in the class it can remain.
GB; formations 329 Mechanised FO, 330 Mech Patrol, 331 Motor Coy 30, 332 Motor Coy 43, 345 Motor MG Pl 43

AS someone who likes to play a game with just a grenadier battalion, giving the 6 251/9s in the ust coy their smoke rounds makes a big difference. You can save a lot of your thinly armoured APCs with the cover the smoke shells provide.

The 250/8 was apparently used to replace the 251/9 in the panzergrenadier battalions and so can also be added into class 127.

To give non-0 250/8s smoke, as they appear in the German recon formations, you could move 250/8s out of class 32 and 126 and into class 133 "Light SP mortar", (empty in the german OOB). This should I think give the non-0 250/8s their smoke.
Then in the formations where scout 250/8s are now missing add another 'Unit/Formation' of class 133 at the end of the formation and the 250/8s are still there and now they have smoke.
Formations in question are
077 PzAufklZug(gep)
110 Artillerie VB/M (not sure if these should get a 250/8 anyway)
121 SdKfz250 Gruppe (this can probably be left as is or the smoke firing 250/8s added as a seperate entry in Misc)
122 SdKfz250 Aufkl (this can probably be left as is)
217 StKp PzAufklAbt
219 PzAufklKp(gep)
221 PzAufklZug(GrW)
222 PzAufklGrp(Ust) (not sure what this formation represents)
228 PzAufklBt(sGrW) (not really neccesary to replace the 250/8 removed from scout class in this formation.)

From
http://www.wwiidaybyday.com/
see
1113 (gp) Panzer-Aufklärungskompanie (gepanzert)
shows 1 "support" 250/8 per gruppe of 7 251/1s
1113 (gp) (fG) whieleichte Panzer-Aufklärungskompanie (gp) (fG)
shows a 2 250/8 cannon coy for 3 gruppe of 6 251/1s, very similar to the 'PzGren Kp (gep)' (formation 357) in your game

formation 077 "PzAufklZug(gep)" making up formation 219 "PzAufklKp(gep)" may benefit from being brought into line with the TOEs above.

The above TOEs also show the 250/8 "PzAufklaerer"? (units 308 and 353) which you have modeled as a 4 man team armed with SMG and grenades as a six man team carrying an LMG.

Best Regards Chuck.

[DRG]

Chuck

When you make general sweeping statements like "give the infantry support guns their smoke ammo" it tells me you really don't understand the game as much as you think you do ( by a wide margin ) so giving me elaborate detailed " instructions " on how to fix what you perceive to be wrong is a waste of your time because I won't bother reading it for the reason I detailed at the start of this paragraph and saying "125, 'Gun APC (halftrack)' (empty in all OOBs other than german)" only proves it. That unit class is also used by two other nations as does saying we should move recce units into class 133 "Light SP mortar".

To give non-0 250/8s smoke, as they appear in the German recon formations, you could move 250/8s out of class 32 and 126 and into class 133 "Light SP mortar",

Just how do you think the AI will handle recce units that are turned into sp-mortars??? They won't be doing a whole lot of scouting sitting back at the rear trying to act like an SP mortar will they ??

The really helpful way to report this would be to tell me that you think UCXXX ( and YYY and ZZZ etc ) that uses weapon XXX does not get smoke when it should get smoke even though UC AAA, BBB, CCC, DDD ( etc ) use the same weapon on different vehicles and they get the smoke they should be getting. Saying "give the infantry support guns their smoke ammo" really only pisses me off because you and I and everyone else KNOWS that "infantry support guns" do indeed, have smoke ammo. Maybe a Unit class has been missed or needs a slight code adjustment to ensure it covers a specific WH size but in the vast majority of cases "infantry support guns" have smoke ammo and suggesting they don't is ridiculous

Keep the verbiage to a minimum sticking to the relevant details then leave the " how to fix it " part up to the people who have been working with the game code for the past 10 years.

OK?


Don