French OOB06 (v.7)

Pibwl · #1 November 13th, 2014, 06:31 PM

Hello,

Several thoughts on the French OOB, while making pictures, for eventual future use (or mod makers)

01 AMC-35 - armament was much better #22 47mm SA35 (L34), not SA34 (ammo should be changed from sabot to AP, but I don't know for sure how much it carried. The page http://www.chars-francais.net/new/in...=691&Itemid=36 states 96 rounds).
Produced from 1937 (now: 1/36), though delivered only from 11/38 (Histoire de Guerre, Blindes & Materiel no.075 and http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AMC_35 ) BTW: it was very rare tank, not used in regular units.
I suggest a better name AMC-35 ACG1 (it is widely known under a factory designation Renault ACG1), like unit AMR-34 YR.

02 AMR-33 - radio is 00, if it matters.

03 AMR-35 - photo is AMR-35 ZT2 with 25mm gun. 7.5mm MG variant needs a new one, eg. http://www.drivehq.com/file/df.aspx/...amr35_005.jpeg or http://t1.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:A...MPvGs4goX_HHOJ
Same for Vichy

04 R35 - first were ordered in April 1935, and according to J. Magnuski's book, delivered in March 1936 (now: 1/35)

05, 175, 188 H-35 - used from 7/36 by the cavalry and only from 1938 by the infantry (unit 175) (now all from 1/36).

06, 176, 189 H-39/SA18 - it has a photo with long 37mm gun - for a short gun there could be eg. 27553 pic

(Btw: H-39/SA18 was a primary model, so it could be H-39, and variant with a long gun could be named H-39/SA38 )

11 AMR-35/13mm - photo is AMR-35 ZT2 with 25mm gun. Proper one is 27537 or 30271

13 Char D1 - photo is D2, proper is 27547 or 27548
According to Trackstory No 20, they were delivered from 1932 (now 1/31), but initially until 1935 they were armed with Renault FT turrets (presumably with 37mm SA18 gun). Only since around 1935-36 they were equipped with definitive turrets. Ammo was 91 HE and 21 AP.
They were fitted with radio as a standard, indicated by a massive antenna support frame. Same for Vichy.

Between 1937 and 5/1940 D1 tanks were used in Africa only. Maybe there should be another class of colonial tanks created? (there should go also AMC-34 YR). Only in 6/40 one battalion returned to France.

16 Char-D2 SA34 - introduced in 4/36 (now 12/35) according to "Histoire de Guerre Blindes & Materiel" no 74.
Fitted with a radio as a standard.

19, 199, 493 Renault UE - produced from 1932 (1/30)

24, 506 Mortiers de 81 - picture is a generic Soviet 82mm with a round base. Same for Vichy 24
Photos of French Stockes-Brandt:
http://www.dws-xip.pl/encyklopedia/moz81mm27-fr/
http://www.3dlm.info/spip/local/cach...49-6-ec410.jpg

42 P.631 - bomber variant was Potez 633 B2, Potez 631 was a fighter with 20m guns (maybe a full name Potez is better).
Same for Vichy 141

45 Morane MS 406 - there is no information, that MS 406 could carry any bombs.
Same for Vichy.

46 Potez 63.11 - it's worth to give it an own photo, since 63.11 had a quite distinctive look. Same for Vichy 46.
This variant entered service only in 9/39 (now 1/38), according to a Czech book "Letadla 1939-45: Francie a Polska".
It would demand extending a lifespan of 232 Potez 25, or better adding ANF Mureaux 115, which was a basic French close recce plane from 1935 - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ANF_Les_Mureaux_113. It could use 2902 icon and could also appear as a bomber, with 200 kg bombs.

108 Mortiers 60mm - unit 286 uses a better picture 21120 of US 60mm mortar (mortar on a photo is too big).

132 M3 75mm GMC - photo is 105mm T19

142, 226 Mortiers de 81 - it is a late war 81mm mortar, when crew should have US helmets - maybe a photo 598 of US mortar would be better

170 FT-17m - I guess, that it should be available since 1938 (now 1/40) - now there is no MG FT-17 available in 1938-39 in CS tank category (formation: Ancient tanks).

Btw: in computer-generated battles in early 30s the AI picks only MG-armed FT-17m, which has no chance against enemy tanks, while cannon-armed FT-17 seemed a basic variant (3/5 tanks in platoons according to WW1 pattern).
Possibly the French retained a pattern of mixed FT platoons until the 30s?

177 FMC Char 2C - should be FCM

The other tanks picked by the AI in 1930-31 are superheavy 2C, while it would be rather improbable to meet these tanks in a meeting engagement, and two companies, which are picked by the AI, are actually more, then there were produced...

179, 505 Mortier de 60 - picture is a bigger generic Soviet 82mm. Same for Vichy 179
Photos of French mortar are eg. here http://www.dws-xip.pl/encyklopedia/a...afall/page/71/
http://www.3dlm.info/spip/IMG/jpg_art449-3.jpg

(190 AMR-35 ZT2 - it was actually a kind of a tank destroyer for GRDI infantry recce groups, not used in a way like regular AMR-35 (only 10 were made). There were plans, that it should be platoon's commander vehicle, but apparently they were used in AT sections of two.)

The other interesting vehicle of this kind, that could be added, was a turretless tank destroyer AMR35 ZT3, introduced in 1939 (10 built, two for each GRDI as well)

195 Char-D2 SA35 - I believe it should be class Infantry tank, like unit 16 Char-D2 SA34, not Light Inf. tank? Both types were used in the same 19th battalion of De Gaulle's 4th DCR.
Only from 3/40 there started their rearmament with long 47mm guns - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Char_D2 (now 6/36)
Seems, that all had radio.

219 Morris 15cwt - better photo is 30123 (of Bedford 15cwt, though)

228 Dodge T214 WC53 - I guess it's supposed to be open body WC51 or 52, WC53 was a closed carryall.

309 Cam Blindes - this model of improvised AC was called Dodge Tanake - http://www.minitracks.fr/n6n2f.htm

343 Renault UE/MG - according to Trackstory 05 "June 1940 the impossible revival" similar vehicles were also used in 6/40 (it is however not clear, if with MG mounted in a casemate, which were ordered in 6/40 for production, or just externally mounted).

380 37mm Mle 1916 - too big icon, better is 2107

387 Potez 25 - icon is Republican, better is 2902.

430 AMC-34 YR - according to a reliable-looking http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AMC_34 , first delivered in 10/35, as 2-men tanks with short 47 mm gun. Then, from 12/37 all sent to colonies and subsequently modified with 3-men crew and 25 mm guns (according to http://www.chars-francais.net/new/in...d=71&Itemid=36 short fortress 25 mm SA RF).

Maybe it should be made a different class colonial tank after 1937?
In colonies there were also used: R35, D1, H35 and H39 (short gun), not counting FT.

431 R-35 bis - R-35 started to receive new guns L/33 already in 3/40 (now 7/40)

435 Char-B1 ter (prototype tank) - a prototype made out of B-1bis was tested only in 5/38, with disappointing results (now 12/37). Two improved prototypes of real B1 ter were completed only in 6/40, but did not see action, and the third wasn't completed (they were sunk on a ship according to Trackstory no 03). It would be more sense to have it in 6/40 only (it would need a change in a formation #27).

438 Laffly V15T - scout version was named V15R (T was tractor)

Regards
Michal

Pibwl · #2 November 13th, 2014, 06:38 PM

Second part: armoured cars only

197 AMD 80 - there seems no point in this unit, available in 7/40 only, since there is the same 408 Laffly 80 AM, available until 7/40. Unit 408 has more correct name (AMD abbreviation was used only with last digits of a year) and speed.
Same for Vichy, where it appears as 197 AMD 80 and 408 Laffly 80AM.

As for 408 Laffly 80 AM, Russian Bronekollektsya 5/2009 states speed 76 km/h, so 27 is a bit too much, and size of 4 is too big comparing with other ACs. Crew should be 4 (3). It was used only in Africa.

I also don't know if it should be A/T wheel - it had a rear drive only. The same remark for 391 Laffly 50 AM, 393-394 Panhard 165/175, 407 White-Laffly AM

The second entry of Laffly 80 could be available from 11/42 - they were used again by the Free French, until the 50s.

310 Mrm-Hrtn II - the French also used a variant rearmed with 25mm gun
(http://www.chars-francais.net/new/in...d=83&Itemid=36 , photo http://s427.photobucket.com/user/sko...l?t=1242072836 though maybe of a German vehicle)
From available photos, 21118 is good (btw, it should be also used for British gun-armed Marmons)

312 Humber I - if France used this early variant at all for anything but training, I don't think they changed 15mm Besa with 13.2 Hotchkiss (if it was feasible at all).
The page http://www.chars-francais.net/new/in...275&Itemid=101 doesn't list Humbers among French armoured cars at all.

313 Humber III - as above

314,315 Humber scout I,II - produced from 1943/1944 only (now 1940). However, according to http://www.chars-francais.net/new/in...=109&Itemid=36 78 exemplaires de ce véhicule ont servi dans l'armée française d'Indochine à partir de 1946. (seems they were used from 1946 only)

316 Ironside I - better icon is 3254 (of turreted version though). However, the quoted page nor Osprey NV177 "Humber Light Reconnaissance Car 1941-45" doesn't mention French use.

317 Ironside II - should be Humber LRC II, like in the British oob - icon 3254, picture 2308. It was produced from 1941, however sources given above don't mention French use.

BTW: Humber LRC III #362 in British oob lacks an icon.

391 Laffly 50 AM - crew should be 4(3)
It should be default armoured car rather, than White.

393 Panhard 165/175 - according to Russian Bronekolektsya 5/2009 on French AC and http://www.chars-francais.net/new/in...d=82&Itemid=38 it appeared in definitive form in 1933 (now 1/32). Crew was 4 (3). It was rear drive only. Gun ammo according to this source was only 50 (now 194 - such info is present on some forums).

Maybe it should be a different class of colonial armoured car, since it was used in North Africa only?
In Africa by 1940 there were used armoured cars: Panhard 165/175 (only), Laffly 50, Laffly 80 (only), White TBC, AMC P16, Laffly S15 TOE (only), Berliet VUDB (only)

The same for Vichy 393

394 Panhard 165/175 - same remarks as above, but Bronekolektsya doesn't mention MG-armed variant. It is available from 7/40, but this type wasn't used in occupied France at all. There is an information, that some were rearmed with 25mm guns, but in 1941 only (it would apply to Vichy #394).
They were used again by the Free French after 1943 until 1946 at least.

There are other interesting armoured cars, that could be added:
- Panhard 178 w/Renault turret, hastily ordered in 6/40 - probably only one was used in action in 6/40. It was armed with 47mm SA35 gun (might be called eg. Panhard 178 (47) or AMD 35/Renault). Turret armour was 25mm on sides and sloped 38mm in front. Apparently it had no CMG.
photo:
http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-MZPnbqxJrl...p178-47_01.jpg or
http://albyminiatures.e-monsite.com/...0178-47-r1.jpg

- AAC 37 aka AM Chevrolet armoured car - unit #455 from Spanish Republican OOB - several were interned and used in action in 6/40. According to Trackstory 20, some of them were armed with 37mm SA18 gun (only?), some were armed with MGs only (apparently only 1 MG).

- Laffly S15 TOE colonial 6x6 AC, used from 1939. Later used by Vichy and Free French.

- Berliet VUDB colonial 4x4 AC, used from 1930 (a Russian page for Berliet http://www.aviarmor.net/tww2/armored...rliet_vudb.htm )
It could use icon 2839 - not ideal, but a turretless AC. Later used by Vichy until 1942.

407 White-Laffly AM - it should be named just White AM or White TBC AM - White-Laffly were modernized vehicles (aka Laffly 50)
Size 4 is too big.
It had a rear drive only.

That's all as for now.

Michal

Pibwl · #3 November 16th, 2014, 08:39 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pibwl

430 AMC-34 YR - according to a reliable-looking http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AMC_34 , first delivered in 10/35, as 2-men tanks with short 47 mm gun. Then, from 12/37 all sent to colonies and subsequently modified with 3-men crew and 25 mm guns (according to http://www.chars-francais.net/new/in...d=71&Itemid=36 short fortress 25 mm SA RF).

Apparently a "short" 25mm gun was just a standard tank 25 mm gun of Panhard 178 (shorter than towed variant).
A photo of 25mm gun armed AMC is here http://forum.valka.cz/files/amc-34.jpg
If the first date is changed, it would demand correction of formations 186 and 187.

Aircraft:

44 LeO-451 - entered service in combat units only in 9/39 (now 1/35).
It could carry much heavier bomb load: according to a Czech book "Letadla 1939-1945 Francie a Polska": 2x500 kg in wings and 5x200 kg in a hull. Safer would be 7x200kg.

Btw: bombs of French aircraft should be scaled in kg, not lb (typical: 10, 50, 100, 200, 500 kg - however, according to http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lior%C3...Olivier_LeO_45 200 kg bombs were actually 224 kg)
Same for Vichy #147

There could be added some earlier level bomber - easiest will be to copy Potez 540 from Rep. Spanish oob, from 1935. It could carry 4x225 kg bombs according to a quoted book.

525 Breguet 695 - most numerous and earlier variant was 693; 695 was delivered only from 6/40. A typical armament is stated 8x50 kg bombs in a bay, I don't know if they could carry heavier ones (maybe 4x100?).
Same for Vichy #145

526 Curtiss Hawk 75 - in French service they were used from spring of 1939 (1/40) and were armed with 4 or 6 MGs 7.5mm, but there's no information, that they could carry bombs.
After 1940 campaign, they were used by Vichy only, and then by the Free French from 11/1942
Same for Vichy #143

Regards

blazejos · #4 February 3rd, 2015, 10:51 AM

Two aircraft’s which can fit to French OOB

Koolhoven F.K.58
Dutch build but France buy them to be used in colonial duty. In desperate days of 1940 they were used by French and Polish.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Koolhoven_F.K.58

http://wp.scn.ru/en/ww15/f/198/21/0

Bloch MB.170
Aerial recoon and bomber most modern but used is small quantities
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bloch_MB.170

Pibwl · #5 February 11th, 2017, 08:14 PM

Only few errors or improvements, easy to fix or skip:

13 Char-D1 - photo is D2 - should be eg. 8863 or 27547 or 27548

(btw: "-" in name is not used in French, same for Char-B1 and Char-D2)

40 Sniper - a picture is a generic post-war US rifle. I'm attaching a photo from French magazine.

197,408 Laffly 80 AM - size should be 3 (now 4), like 391 Laffly 50 AM and other comparable cars, while crew should be 4 (3).

202 20mm AA-Gun - photo is Flak, should be Oerlikon, eg. 17041.

209, 431 R-35, R-35 bis - it's worth to give it an own photo with long gun (attached). Gun's designation was in fact SA38, not SA35 (for all users). It was a very rare tank.
The name "R-35 bis" is not used in French publications (however, French Trackstory 04 Renault R35/R40 calls it R-39, although it wasn't official name). More appropriate name could be R-35 /SA38 or something like this.

Same remarks for Vichy unit 431 and Polish 468 - which could use the same photo, or there are photos of Polish tanks (attached).

387 Potez 25 - photo is Brasilian in fact (http://www.reservaer.com.br/galeriah...otez25toe.html ) - attached are some French ones.

430 AMC-34 YR - according to http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AMC_34 and other publications, from 12/37 all were sent to colonies and subsequently modified with 3-men crew and 25 mm guns (in other place it was described as short fortress gun SA RF, but I have no exact data. The page http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic.php?t=60801 lists 25mm RF models L/40, L/47.2, L/60 and L/72. Photo https://web.archive.org/web/20051128...mc34_84246.jpg shows quite short gun, but a standard weapon 008 25mm SA35 L/53 might do).

526 Curtiss Hawk 75 - photo is apparently Finish (same for Vichy), I'm attaching several French and Vichy proposals.

That's all for France this time.

IronDuke99 · #6 February 12th, 2017, 08:19 PM

My grandfather told my father he once met a Frenchman during WWII who said he was in the French resistance who had a Chassepot rifle, that he may, or may not, have fired at a German soldier on the 1 April 1942...

Pibwl · #7 August 26th, 2020, 05:37 PM

I couldn't help investigating some of the aircraft in 2020 release, when I browsed an interesting Czech book with relatively detailed bomb loads, which are often hard to find (Jaroslav Schmid: Letadla 1939-45. Stíhací a bombardovací letadla Francie a Polska)

232 Potez 25 [AOP] - photo of French aircraft is 8239, like unit 387.

567 ANF Mureaux 110 (AOP) - since it has a beautiful icon, it might also serve as a bomber, with 200 kg of bombs (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ANF_Les_Mureaux_113 ) - from 1935/36, when Mureaux 115 appeared.

654 Bloch MB.174 - photo is Amiot 354, as below.
Bomb load is correct

655 Amiot 354 - it rather couldn't carry 20 bombs in its sleek fuselage, while it had no external hardpoints (and 50 kg is a small caliber on the other hand). It could carry 2x500 kg or 6x200 kg inside, though (max 1200 kg).

656 Amiot 143M - according to the quoted book, it could not carry 9 big bombs (100 kg in this case), however it could carry 8 bombs 100 or 200 kg (4 in hull, 4 under wings - 1600 kg in total).

BTW: "M" is in fact redundant in designation - it was only a part of full producer's designation Amiot 143 M5, meaning multiplace 5-seater - the Army used designation 143 BN5

657 Bloch MB.200 - as I've already written in Czechoslovak OOB http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/showthread.php?t=52481 , in case of 50 kg bombs, only 16 could be carried (8 in 8 single bomb bays and 8 on 4 external racks, two on each) - now 24.
It could also carry 12×100 kg (8 in bomb bays and 4 on external racks) - 1200 or 1400 in total.

658 Bloch MB.210 - I have no detailed info, apart from bigger bomb load 1600 kg , but most probably it had the same configuration as MB.200, so it could carry only half of 32 x 50 kg bombs.
It apparently could carry 8x100 kg in bomb bays and 4x200 kg on external racks.