Slow down exploration speed in AICampaign/PROPORTIONS

[JLS]

Originally posted by PsychoTechFreak:
JLS and AICampaign answers:

_______________________

The simulation files that I have sent to your attention have been created from mid-life large, based on 255.

Great, I can't wait to Download them.

" Based on 255 "?
You have made other changes in the setting files?
~

JLS:"Did you regenerate for a good map?"
PTF: (Yep).

Excerpt from AIC readme, as well as previous post.
Always click finite on before RE-generating a map! Otherwise ALL planets may have 1k of resorces!
There by possibly corrupting game planet values at start!
~~~

I have seen some of the neat additions in a recently started solo game. I am curious what happens if I take more than 1 racial trait, maybe organic + temporal, what kind of cultural center do I get in this case? So far I always use religious/organic which results in agrarian cultures of course.

Thanks.

The game will start with about 50% of the general Cultural Centers and then mix the remaining with your racial choices, in AIC

Temporal CC gives you a little extra Research, so you will have more of Temporal, then Agrarian CC's, in the Last 50% of starting Cultural Centers

I have Religious Construction set up in AIC, but no Religious Cultural Centers as of now, do you or anyone have any suggestions for a Religious Cultural Center so I may add this to the next upgrade !!!
~

I agree, probably I need some more experience with it. It was just a bit annoying to waste a lot of resources in the finite resources games at the beginning.

As would, any start from a se4 game in finite play)…
With ‘origin’ in finite however; you would loose all resources in a few years at the Home World, is this not true! Hence, one would not be able to continue a finite game with the ‘origin’

You also have Imperial Trade in AIC, This more then makes up for any wasted surplus in the (first two years) until your 2nd or 3rd colonizer is in the air, when you start a resource deficit . The Trade Center will also help in regards to wasting resources by trading for needed recourses, don’t you agree?
~

from the files I have seen that you have made them cheaper. My first thought was about: probably too inexpensive ? But I also need more game play experience with it...

Thank you, I appreciate your interest, you will notice it will take less then 15 years with about 100 to 200 Million people on the planet (in city) to upgrade from a City to an Arcology. This does not seem unreasonable?
~

I have not observed units or ships, just facilities - extensively I admit. The only issue I have seen is, a few turns after, or probably at the same turn the minerals reach zero point:
All cultural centers have been scrapped, only three facilities remain: SY, and the other 2 I might be wrong: resupply depot and a port or similar. You will see it from the files. I send you

In regards to ships, that’s ok, that you did not post the amounts and makeup as you did in Olegs tests; by you saying the AI scraped ships, the AI had to have a, good many of them, or he would not of scraped anything. AI methodology in this respect is in my previous post.

You are telling me the AI is scraping planetary facilities? I did not know se4 has this ability of the AI scraping Facilities???
~~~

I am going to check out the vehicle Data file. If I get a notion of it, I will do some tweaks for the planned 12-galaxies simulation, or you could reply to my e-mail, whatever comes first.

I would prefer you do this, thereby understanding the vehicle Data file, any moder can set the AI to have as many ships or Bases as he/she would like; by circumventing Maintenance restrictions to any level on any ship or base in the AI Balance Mod here in AI Campaign. Although caution is offered, in regards to Balance. You don’t want somebody; to have a 800 turn game go sour, just because an ambitious AI designer gave the AI 400 Dreadnoughts or base ships in the end; just to have the most powerful AI in the universe.
If you or any other players needs a hand with AI Campaign or its Sub-Mods, please let me know, this is a new and different concept for the AI… I will surly help you as best I can.

Regarding the planned 12-galaxies simulation or any tests; maybe should wait to be sure the DOS Batch program is compatible with Non SE 4 Based Data files.
Certainly until I tweaked the AIs research and other files from the results of your Last test. Don’t you agree?

Do not misunderstand, I am thinking about every homeplanet (the humans included) could have infinite resources ! I mean, just to circumvent the problem with AI scrapping cultural centers when HP is depleted, from above. I know this would be a problem if you switch back to a game with infinite resources, you would need two different facility.txt files for both types of games, otherwise the value percentages would go up, that is correct.

If a human wants an advanced engineering tech (Value Improvement Plant) for his home world he/she can still research it and then build it on the home world, true!

In regards to the AI, I don’t believe the AI scraps any facilities in se4 or AI Campaign after the game starts. Have you tested your DOS batch program before you advanced any turns to be positve that the Facilities are in good order from the start?

With this being true, and the AI does not Scrap facilities, then there may be a flaws in your test or a bug with the DOS program or it only works with BASE se4 Mods. Meaning no disrespect what I am about to say: Your test may not be valid with the tests you have been running for this AIC and Oleg’s AI in his mod.?!?
This flaw can be proven to exist in seconds; by just starting a new game (with out the DOS batch program) with the parameters we discussed. Then checking all facilities and you will notice the Planet and the the CCs on the HomeWorlds are as they should be; as I just did!!!

Poor Oleg, you may have him so concerned, that his AI empire is making weird facilities.
~
Did you set up the tests with the defaults that we mentioned for the AIC test. One planet, no warp and finite correct, I feel it is possible you strayed from the test parameters that we discussed; from in the startup or other pre file data changes. Is it possible that you added another mod to AIC inadvertently, there by overwriting AICs data files because, Default should have not been Mid Life, it should have been the top map in quad startup menu at setup, and there is no way in AIC; you could get 255 systems, this would break the SE4 map editor. So I have it set at the Optimal setting of about 114 systems, so others may use se4 Map editor in conjunction with AIC!

So with the Above true; in regards to the AI NOT scraping facilities in SE4 and AIC, then there would be no reasons to change anything in AIC or have dual facility text files, for the reasons you stated. What do you think?
~

Well, I need a better feeling for AIC to provide an assumption of a turn count, give me some time.
If I look at the AI SM component costs, I guess it could be scary to meet the first AI. I think the AI should achieve warp at approx. the same time as the usual human setup, balanced to a let's say 120% research candidate. I mean, if the Eee are set up with 130%, they should warp a bit earlier than a 120% race.

I agree, you are right on at 120% research candidate.
So we would want the AI to Appear way after the Human Player (75-100 turns), via warp, and give the Human Player the Advantage here, so he may obtain a good foot hold (And let the AI just try to take it from them), don’t you agree.
But if the Human Player looses focus on Stellar Manipulation for lets say 75-100 turns in a warp race, then so be it!
~

That should be avoided somehow. Value improvement plants, micromanaging, I guess this will be difficult to balance out. Or probably: indepletable home planets by value improving cultural centers.

I believe all players would deplete the Home World of All recourses in se4 and most/ALL mods currently for Space Empires IV there by causing that game to terminate from lack of resourses with the one system, Finite, with no warp Test. Possably, before warp is achieved. Don't you agree?

However with Finite Mod in AI Campaign: Allows the Human Player to stay in the game and not terminate thru lack of treasury; by use of Imperial Trade.
I believe, what I stated in earlier post to be true!

Actually no warp and finite, seems it might be very unreasonable for the human Player… Human won’t have a chance, not even slight. Against this AI in AIC; with this setting.

[ March 10, 2003, 20:48: Message edited by: JLS ]

[JLS]

PsychoTechFreak,

I have not received save file yet?
Were you able to send it.
No hurry, just FYI...



[ March 10, 2003, 18:37: Message edited by: JLS ]

[PsychoTechFreak]

JLS and AICampaign answers:

What map did you use?

The simulation files that I have sent to your attention have been created from mid-life large, based on 255.

Did you regenerate for a good map

Yep. For the next simulation I will use your suggested 12 galaxies with finite resources and regeneration maps until "good". But yet I have to got it to run under XP, I will try a (Master B. suggested) SE4 batch workaround not before late tonight.

You could not see this in the DOS test,
but I also added: A refining family as well. Refining Community, Refining Society and Refining Center.
To complement the Agrarian Facility group.
With some neat new Images. Check it out
I also was able to add Race Specific Construction. For example: Crystal Construction that allows the Crystals or what ever race to have some individual Culture Centers from the start. As well as much more options opened now for future upgrades.

I have seen some of the neat additions in a recently started solo game. I am curious what happens if I take more than 1 racial trait, maybe organic + temporal, what kind of cultural center do I get in this case? So far I always use religious/organic which results in agrarian cultures of course.

We felt that ‘Huge amounts of cargo stocks’ takes away from the challenge of having to Balance an economy...

I agree, probably I need some more experience with it. It was just a bit annoying to waste a lot of resources in the finite resources games at the beginning. I definetely need a SE5 feature to shutdown facilities .

Do you feel that it is to long in AIC to build cultural centers?

No, from the files I have seen that you have made them cheaper. My first thought was about: probably too inexpensive ? But I also need more game play experience with it...

How many units and what make up was on there home worlds?

I have not observed units or ships, just facilities - extensively I admit. The only issue I have seen is, a few turns after, or probably at the same turn the minerals reach zero point:
All cultural centers have been scrapped, only three facilities remain: SY, and the other 2 I might be wrong: resupply depot and a port or similar. You will see it from the files.

I can prepare a test file on the above for you to see for yourself and post. I will have it for you tomorrow… OK?
But this is not necessary all you have to do is check out the vehicle Data file and search the AI balance Techs. With this I can set the AI to Pay no Maintenance on any ship we want, and they will never scrap anything.

I am going to check out the vehicle Data file. If I get a notion of it, I will do some tweaks for the planned 12-galaxies simulation, or you could reply to my e-mail, whatever comes first.

This is regards to Finite: There must be a depletion, if there was none, then if captured by a human player with CCs in tact that Human player will have a planet that never depletes. Giving that human a great advantage over another in Multiplayer games.

Note: All specific resource generation is intrinsic and cumulative when Finite off. As it states in the read me file!

Do not misunderstand, I am thinking about every homeplanet (the humans included) could have infinite resources ! I mean, just to circumvent the problem with AI scrapping cultural centers when HP is depleted, from above. I know this would be a problem if you switch back to a game with infinite resources, you would need two different facility.txt files for both types of games, otherwise the value percentages would go up, that is correct.

In regards to tweaking this AI. Approximately, how many turns do you think would elapse for a human to achieve enough warp to exit his one system. In one planet, no warp, Finite game? Do you think I should target this AI to achieve warp before or after the human achieves his goals as well as warp?

Well, I need a better feeling for AIC to provide an assumption of a turn count, give me some time.
If I look at the AI SM component costs, I guess it could be scary to meet the first AI. I think the AI should achieve warp at approx. the same time as the usual human setup, balanced to a let's say 120% research candidate. I mean, if the Eee are set up with 130%, they should warp a bit earlier than a 120% race.

Also is it possible for a human Player; to deplete his planets of resources prior to receiving warp tech in a one system, no warp, FINITE game.

That should be avoided somehow. Value improvement plants, micromanaging, I guess this will be difficult to balance out. Or probably: indepletable home planets by value improving cultural centers.

[PsychoTechFreak]

I have sent it to the mail address of your HP about 20 hours ago. Watch out for Thomas_... with a 3MByte attachment. Maybe it takes some time, FBI and CIA are busily observing a lot of combat.trn files nowadays.

EDIT: After about 30 hours I have received the delivery failure report because : Remote system no longer responding. Is your e-mail address at the bottom of your homepage up to date? I try again.

[ March 11, 2003, 13:18: Message edited by: PsychoTechFreak ]

[PsychoTechFreak]

" Based on 255 "?
You have made other changes in the setting files?
Did you set up the tests with the defaults that we mentioned for the AIC test. One planet, no warp and finite correct, I feel it is possible you strayed from the test parameters that we discussed; from in the startup or other pre file data changes. Is it possible that you added another mod to AIC inadvertently, there by overwriting AICs data files because, Default should have not been Mid Life, it should have been the top map in quad startup menu at setup, and there is no way in AIC; you could get 255 systems, this would break the SE4 map editor. So I have it set at the Optimal setting of about 114 systems, so others may use se4 Map editor in conjunction with AIC!

No, not more than this. I like to play maps at max. size, but I will change it back for the discussed simulation. I have not yet found the time to get back to it. The simulation files, that I have sent, have been taken from before our discussion.

Always click finite on before RE-generating a map! Otherwise ALL planets may have 1k of resorces!
There by possibly corrupting game planet values at start!

I am familiar with the issue. I have observed the planets of the first backups also, the homeplanets have been setup correctly (2M/2M/2M or 1M?)

Regarding the planned 12-galaxies simulation or any tests; maybe should wait to be sure the DOS Batch program is compatible with Non SE 4 Based Data files.
In regards to the AI, I don’t believe the AI scraps any facilities in se4 or AI Campaign after the game starts. Have you tested your DOS batch program before you advanced any turns to be positve that the Facilities are in good order from the start?

With this being true, and the AI does not Scrap facilities, then there may be a flaws in your test or a bug with the DOS program or it only works with BASE se4 Mods. Meaning no disrespect what I am about to say: Your test may not be valid with the tests you have been running for this AIC and Oleg’s AI in his mod.?!?
This flaw can be proven to exist in seconds; by just starting a new game (with out the DOS batch program) with the parameters we discussed. Then checking all facilities and you will notice the Planet and the the CCs on the HomeWorlds are as they should be; as I just did!!!

Poor Oleg, you may have him so concerned, that his AI empire is making weird facilities.

The DOS batch program works on basis of the same procedure as the turns are processed in PBW. It takes SE4.exe to compute the turns and it uses the mod paths that you setup the simulation with, similar to the modpicker program. It is necessary to kickstart a simulation: setup a simultaneous game, perform the first turn as human player with complete AI turned on; the initial setup of the homeplanet looks all right. After the first turn has been saved, you start the batch prg to compute the following turns. Your statement would imply that every PBW game with mods would get into trouble ! I have checked after 15 years, the CCs are on the homeplanets, 20 years: I have got a message like: "the minerals on planet x (homeplanet) have been depleted sire", and the CCs have been scrapped without any other facility projects within the next years. But I will repeat some tests about it. What happens in your tests after the minerals have been depleted ? Do you process under simultaneous and without watching the AI?

[ March 11, 2003, 10:43: Message edited by: PsychoTechFreak ]

[JLS]

[quote]Originally posted by PsychoTechFreak:

The DOS batch program works on basis

If I offended you, in any way; I apologize. I thank you for our discussion, with your help I will be able to tweak the AI as not to be overbearing in a warp race!
And tone there research etc, so the human will have more of a chance:

“with [one planet] default set up ; and this AI will do fine in No warp, Finite !!!! no need for extra starting planets.”
~~~~~

In regards to my statement:

“maybe should wait to be sure the DOS Batch program is compatible with Non SE 4 Based Data files.
In regards to the AI, I don’t believe the AI scraps any facilities in se4 or AI Campaign after the game starts. Have you tested your DOS batch program before you advanced any turns to be positve that the Facilities are in good order from the start?
With this being true, and the AI does not Scrap facilities, then there may be a flaws in your test or a bug with the DOS program or it only works with BASE se4 Mods. Meaning no disrespect what I am about to say: Your test may not be valid with the tests you have been running for this AIC and Olegs AI in his mod.?!?
This flaw can be proven to exist in seconds; by just starting a new game (with out the DOS batch program) with the parameters we discussed. Then checking all facilities and you will notice the Planet and the the CCs on the HomeWorlds are as they should be"

I felt your statements warranted this reply, here are your Posts:

I have seen the AI scrapping their homeworlds when the unavoidable 0 of minerals has been reached after about 20 years

All cultural centers have been scrapped, only three facilities remain: SY, and the other 2 I might be wrong: resupply depot and a port or similar. You will see it from the files.

I mean, just to circumvent the problem with AI scrapping cultural centers when HP is depleted

~~~
Actually, I assumed you have had a lot of experience in space empires IV, and would know that a cultural center was a Facility, and that the AI in se4 never scraps Facilities.
I guess I was surprised you would post statements as above in your (Quotes), if, knowing the AI does not scrap facilities.

Unless I am misunderstanding you; and there is another issue?

No matter, it is difficult to express ones self with the written word, and I am no writer, but there is one thing I want you to know:
I appreciate the effort and time you put into this and that a lot of our discussion has helped with AIC.
In regards to scraping Facilities, I mean...well you know what I mean.

Thank you very much for your assistance PsychoTechFreak

John

[ March 11, 2003, 18:06: Message edited by: JLS ]

[PsychoTechFreak]

I don't feel offended, I am just annoyed a bit about my lacking time at the moment. I would like to help a lot more, but I can't. Again, I have not yet read all of your post, but I will answer later.

This is what I have digged up now:

Version 1.24:

7. Fixed - AI should scrap any atmospheric converters if the desired
atmosphere has been attained on the planet.

Version 1.20:

18. Fixed - Improved the AI's scrapping of uneeded facilities in a finite
resource game.

The bottom fix now makes some sense to me: It looks like the AI feels the cultural centers become worthless when minerals are depleted, because the CC does not produce any minerals at that time. But I will test it again (without batch program, but I guess it will be the same, at least with our finite setup).

[PsychoTechFreak]

All right, I have seen the scrapping of CC facilities now also without batch program.

It looks a bit like a not intended feature, but I need to investigate more about it:

This is what I have done:
-Changed settings.txt to 255 systems max.
-changed plr starting resources high to 2000, so the homeplanet would be depleted after the first turn
-game setup was AIC, large midlife quadrant, 1 good planet start (but with the modded 2000 min start)
-high research, everything researched from the beginning, cos I thought it could be that the AI wants to build something else than a CC

Turn 1: homeplanet depleted, but nothing else within the next turns, CC facilities ok

About one year later (2401.1), I just see the message: scrapped ship xxx, but no message about scrapping facilities, I investigate the homeplanet facilities window and what has happened? Only a spaceyard and a spacedock 2/20 facilities at the homeplanet.

Mmmh, looks a bit weird and could be either intended or a bug, but it obviously has nothing to do with SE4batch.

Anyway, I am going to do some more tests about it before the next simulation.

JLS, I have found another mail address in the mod picker window, when your mod is picked (...@msn.com), should I take this one next time? Or did you receive my files in the meantime?

EDIT:
It is the same with turn based, WPs connected, finite resources, proportions, medium quadrant strands:
Approximately one year after the homeplanet has been depleted, the CC facilities are gone. No message about it also (same as in AICampaign).

JLS, I think we need a workaround for AIC/proportions games with finite resources. I am going to continue some simulations with infinite resources now, because I think it does not make much sense to continue finite resources with these conditions. SE4batch and AI deathmatch#2 computing can be trusted again !

PS: To make it clear, all of the tests above have been done without SE4batch !

[ March 11, 2003, 20:51: Message edited by: PsychoTechFreak ]

[JLS]

Ahh, I see what you mean regards to scraping facilities, now!
Thanks

But that was fixed so long ago.

The solo AIC game I am playing now, is in turn 688; I am in 9th , out of 12 AI Players and 6 Neutrals and 1 independent. (with View all players scores)
I check on a differant AI, about 10 turns, on average, thru out this game, with the AI having constant up and down resource deficits. ALL AI Home Worlds Culture Centers are fine.

I have Grand Lord Vito AIC save game, GVL is in 2nd of his 732 Turn game and all AI Cultural Centers are Fine, in that game as well….
There is one Organic race that went from 2nd to 3rd Place with losses to ships and Planets and ran a {Currant total} resource deficit now for over (allot) of turns; All Cultural Centers are fine for that race.
1rst Place is held by AI Player with 281 Ships and 13 bases has a net per turn of in lowest of +7332 per turn.

Sorry, I don’t know what to say, about your DOS test. Every thing plays fine in regular game play, with ALL types of Culture Centers.

I can send you the Save Game files if, you like?

I guess the Space Empire Patch’s in v1.20 and v1.24 has worked. Is it possible that the DOS Program you are using has data in it that predates the above Patchs? I don’t know, I have not received your Email yet from your test.

~~~~~

How does other MODs stack up to your test, that have similar Urban Centers facilities?

My teen age son and I are currently playing Adamant Mod they have facilities Similar.

Proportions MOD also uses Cultural Facilities that are Similar.

With the same Parameter test, will there Urban Center End up missing?

[ March 11, 2003, 20:55: Message edited by: JLS ]

[PsychoTechFreak]

Read my EDIT below:

EDIT:
It is the same with turn based, WPs connected, finite resources, proportions, medium quadrant strands:
Approximately one year after the homeplanet has been depleted, the CC facilities are gone. No message about it also (same as in AICampaign).

JLS, I think we need a workaround for AIC/proportions games with finite resources. I am going to continue some simulations with infinite resources now, because I think it does not make much sense to continue finite resources with these conditions. SE4batch and AI deathmatch#2 computing can be trusted again !

PS: To make it clear, all of the tests above have been done without SE4batch !

After your homeplanets have been depleted completely (0 minerals) you need to wait about another year, then take a look again ! It looks like a misunderstanding, I am talking about resources depleted on the planet (values on 0kT), not about a lack of AI resources.

[ March 11, 2003, 21:01: Message edited by: PsychoTechFreak ]