Cthulhu R'lyeh Wgah'nagl Fhtagn, L�! L�! - Page 5

Jasper · #41 October 5th, 2003, 10:03 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by johan osterman:
I have a little trouble taking the whole usenet magic duel debate seriously, since Ying Wan Lam discovered that the magic duel had been seriously bugged for the better part of the time that all the complaints were made.

No offense, but this is actually a very good example of what's wrong with Magic Duel. It has _such_ a chilling effect that everyone (not just the good players) stayed away from it unless they absolutely dominated in Astral Magic. Besides, do you really expect all of your players to have time to testbed _every_ aspect of Dominions?!

People's decisions on this were almost entirely made on how Mind Duel was _supposed_ to work, not how the bug made it work. Besides, do you really expect players to have enough time to testbed _every_ aspect of Dominions?!

The effects of Mind Duel on Pretender design and faction balance are IMHO undeniable and undesireable.

Nerfix · #42 October 5th, 2003, 10:08 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Jasper:

quote:
Originally posted by johan osterman:
I have a little trouble taking the whole usenet magic duel debate seriously, since Ying Wan Lam discovered that the magic duel had been seriously bugged for the better part of the time that all the complaints were made.

The effects of Mind Duel on Pretender design and faction balance are IMHO undeniable and undesireable.

Well, Magic Duel is one of the main reasons why Void Lord and Shedu are treated like lepers.

johan osterman · #43 October 5th, 2003, 10:37 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Jasper:
No offense, but this is actually a very good example of what's wrong with Magic Duel. It has _such_ a chilling effect that everyone (not just the good players) stayed away from it unless they absolutely dominated in Astral Magic. Besides, do you really expect all of your players to have time to testbed _every_ aspect of Dominions?!

People's decisions on this were almost entirely made on how Mind Duel was _supposed_ to work, not how the bug made it work. Besides, do you really expect players to have enough time to testbed _every_ aspect of Dominions?!

The effects of Mind Duel on Pretender design and faction balance are IMHO undeniable and undesireable.

Non taken. The thing is that we in our circle of friends, beta testers etc have not experienced mind duel as major factor in pretender design. Perhaps we play less competetively or some such thing, but it has never appeared to be a factor in the same big way it appeared from the cspigs discussions. This coupled with the bug and misperception of its mechanics appears to me indicative that its fearsome reputation is disproportionate to its actual impact in the game. If recall correctly Ying Wan Lam also made an argument concering the over estimation prominence of the Astral King, in conjunction with the testing that resulted in the discovery of the mind duel bug. As far as I can recall the argument was if not exhaustive at least somewhat convincing and show that other players from other player Groups share our estimate.

To sum it up: I have played a fair number of games with reasonably competent players and mind duel has not in my experience been a major factor in pretender design. Nor does its power when analysed appear to me to be so decisive as the cspigs discussions imply. I think the astral kings have been attributed consequence disproportionate to their actual power. Perhaps we could play a game or two when Dominions 2 becomes available to you.

Kristoffer O · #44 October 5th, 2003, 10:37 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Nerfix:
Well, Magic Duel is one of the main reasons why Void Lord and Shedu are treated like lepers.

I have always liked them. Besides, it works both ways. A pretender with astral picks should be powerful enough not to worry too much.

Hmm. For a while at least. Then others might try to boost their mages to get rid of him.

Can it be that no one gives their pretenders astral picks?

I often do. There are so many useful astral spells, low as well as high level and a dead pretender is not a big problem.

Jasper · #45 October 6th, 2003, 02:26 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Kristoffer O:

quote:
Originally posted by Nerfix:
Well, Magic Duel is one of the main reasons why Void Lord and Shedu are treated like lepers.

I have always liked them. Besides, it works both ways. A pretender with astral picks should be powerful enough not to worry too much.

Hmm. For a while at least. Then others might try to boost their mages to get rid of him.

Can it be that no one gives their pretenders astral picks? I often do. There are so many useful astral spells, low as well as high level and a dead pretender is not a big problem.

Pretenders with Astral IMHO are far better off not spending points on other magic paths, especially when they are expensive to begin with. You can afford more Astral this way, and don't stand to lose 2 skill when you die.

These are both cool Pretenders, and I have considered using them -- but because I like them rather than because they're effective. If it wasn't for the nature of Mind Duel I might even use them in a multiplayer game.

The Shedu's inability to wear an Astral Skullcap, 125 cost, and starting with only 1 Astral is particularily bad.

MStavros · #46 October 6th, 2003, 07:59 AM

Can you tell me that WHAT THE HECK IS A MIND DUEL?

Jasper · #47 October 6th, 2003, 09:43 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by MStavros:
Can you tell me that WHAT THE HECK IS A MIND DUEL?

Oops! I mean Magic Duel. Level 3 Evocation.

[ October 06, 2003, 08:58: Message edited by: Jasper ]

Nagot Gick Fel · #48 October 6th, 2003, 03:17 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Nerfix:

quote:
Originally posted by Nagot Gick Fel:

quote:
Originally posted by Nerfix:

And how does 3 Cold differ from 3 Heat for R'lyeh?

Because they're better water mages than fire mages?
Are there some mechanics i am unaware of? Like Water/Fire spells costing more fatigue in Heat/Cold Dominion?

Fire magic and auras are weakened in cold provinces and vice versa. R'lyeh can protect itself from cold effects easily enough, has a wide range of water spells available, and sucks at fire magic - so why choose a hot dominion? Many players argue a hot dominion is beater to deal with Ermor, Atlantis, Caelum, and Jotunheim, and indeed picking heat+3 might be a wiser choice if these nations are in play.

Nerfix · #49 October 6th, 2003, 06:10 PM

Just realised something...
The role of Illithids has changed:
In Dom I, they are "artilery", having a ranged attack with AoE.

In Dom II, they seem to be somekind of "Snipers", taking out single units effectively out of batle. I can see the huge potential of this, being able to lock down Cavalry, including Knigths, Serpent Cataprachts and *drum roll* Atlantian War Lobsters and "Big creatures", including Krakens, Sea/Horned/Sacred Serpents and *behold!* Shamblers And i think that their commanders can still target magic Users and commanders, shutting down mages, priests and *gasp* supercombatants.

Of course i think that you can resists the effects of new Mind BLast, but i can still see the potential.

Nagot Gick Fel · #50 October 6th, 2003, 06:38 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Nerfix:
Just realised something...
The role of Illithids has changed:
In Dom I, they are "artilery", having a ranged attack with AoE.

In Dom II, they seem to be somekind of "Snipers", [...]

Of course i think that you can resists the effects of new Mind BLast, but i can still see the potential.

Good point(s). Their effective range will also be a decisive factor to define their new role, though.