Clams overpowered?

[Chris Byler]

Originally posted by HotNifeThruButr:
You can't "nerf" clams by improving the other water magic rituals. You'd end up having the whole path being broken and not just clams.

The whole path *is* broken - by being too weak. That's the whole reason you (allegedly) don't get steamrolled when you give up your water gem to make clams - there wasn't much else you could have done with it anyway, because it's so easy to field cold immune armies that shrug off almost all the water battlefield magic and Murdering Winter to boot.

If water magic becomes more useful, it's possible that the nations that use it will have to be nerfed - because they were balanced under the assumption that water magic isn't good for much. (Except T'ien Ch'i, which is weak enough already.) But if other aspects of water magic aren't improved and clams are nerfed, why bother looking for water sites at all?

[HotNifeThruButr]

Originally posted by Chris Byler:

quote:

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Originally posted by HotNifeThruButr:
You can't "nerf" clams by improving the other water magic rituals. You'd end up having the whole path being broken and not just clams.

The whole path *is* broken - by being too weak. That's the whole reason you (allegedly) don't get steamrolled when you give up your water gem to make clams - there wasn't much else you could have done with it anyway, because it's so easy to field cold immune armies that shrug off almost all the water battlefield magic and Murdering Winter to boot.

If water magic becomes more useful, it's possible that the nations that use it will have to be nerfed - because they were balanced under the assumption that water magic isn't good for much. (Except T'ien Ch'i, which is weak enough already.) But if other aspects of water magic aren't improved and clams are nerfed, why bother looking for water sites at all?

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Of course you'd have to make water magic more diverse or powerful, but at the same time, clams can't stay the way they are. I don't mean for anyone to nerf clams and keep water the same.

[HotNifeThruButr]

Originally posted by Chris Byler:

quote:

---

Originally posted by HotNifeThruButr:
You can't "nerf" clams by improving the other water magic rituals. You'd end up having the whole path being broken and not just clams.

The whole path *is* broken - by being too weak. That's the whole reason you (allegedly) don't get steamrolled when you give up your water gem to make clams - there wasn't much else you could have done with it anyway, because it's so easy to field cold immune armies that shrug off almost all the water battlefield magic and Murdering Winter to boot.

If water magic becomes more useful, it's possible that the nations that use it will have to be nerfed - because they were balanced under the assumption that water magic isn't good for much. (Except T'ien Ch'i, which is weak enough already.) But if other aspects of water magic aren't improved and clams are nerfed, why bother looking for water sites at all?

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Of course you'd have to make water magic more diverse or powerful, but at the same time, clams can't stay the way they are. I don't mean for anyone to nerf clams and keep water the same.

[Cainehill]

Originally posted by Norfleet:

Other water summons tend to be relatively anemic at best compared to the summons of the other elements: Many are aquatic only, which tends to restrict their use to aquatic nations....who already have aquatic troops, and generally need something useful on LAND.

Or the water summons are ... land only, and can't be used to go into the water.

Similarly the water combat spells : Cold Bolt and Cold BLast ... can't be used underwater!

Water is weak, largely in part because it's schizophrenic - too much is either only useful on the land, or only useful in the water, and very little that's useful in the littoral. (That being where the land and sea meet - coastal waters, and land coasts.)

I don't expect this'll happen in Dom2, but for Dom3, there ought to be more attention paid to coastal territories.

For instance - no reason why giant crabs and even Krakens shouldn't be able to attack coastal provinces. "History" (as reported by Pliny the Elder, et al) is full of Krakens attacking fishing towns, harbors, etc. Many crabs are capable of coming up onto the beach and seaweed covered rocks. War-seals and walruses, maybe. Amphibious summonings.

Likewise - water spouts, wave strikes, etc - some combat spells that could be cast in the water, and also coastal provinces. Perhaps even ones with lakes and/or rivers (again - might be something that would only happen in a Dom3).

And, just to reiterate - Ice Castles. Doesn't make sense that _Nature_ makes fortresses in the ocean, but Water doesn't, and Ice Castles (Glacial Keeps, whatever) could be both water and cold / mountain.

[peasant]

I agree, overpowered.

Basically, 10 water gems equals 5 pearls, if u use alchemy to translate them for something useful (how many ice swords do you need...?)

So, for investment of 1 turn of research (as mage could be doing that instead) you get payback in 5 turns, so very little downside to making a clam, rather than translating into pearls direct. And it is easy to make it a compounding investment.

I agree that price should include 5 astral - that way, they are still useful (as a renewable source of pearls for combat mages in the field) but wouldn't make as powerfull as a banking strategy.

[Arryn]

Originally posted by peasant:
I agree, overpowered.

I agree that price should include 5 astral - that way, they are still useful (as a renewable source of pearls for combat mages in the field) but wouldn't make as powerfull as a banking strategy.

Ditto your assessment. If making clams didn't confer such a clear-cut advantage you wouldn't see most experienced players employing them as a core part of their growth strategies. It's a blatant clue that something is unbalanced when many people employ the same single tactic, which is a clear sign of exploitation and abuse.

[PvK]

I still like my idea to have clams draw on a limited worldwide supply of pearls - say one per sea province on the map. Once there are more clams than pearls, a random selection equal to the surplus of clams, don't produce pearls that turn.

PvK

[Argitoth]

Originally posted by PvK:
I still like my idea to have clams draw on a limited worldwide supply of pearls - say one per sea province on the map. Once there are more clams than pearls, a random selection equal to the surplus of clams, don't produce pearls that turn.

PvK

Let's not make clams useless, please.

[LintMan]

Originally posted by PvK:
I still like my idea to have clams draw on a limited worldwide supply of pearls - say one per sea province on the map. Once there are more clams than pearls, a random selection equal to the surplus of clams, don't produce pearls that turn.

The problem I see with this is that the hoarder would still get the lion's share of the pearls (since they'd have forged them sooner, before the limit kicked in, and would have a much greater percentage of the total), while "casual clammers" who only forge a few would get beat. So the incentive to hoard them would be diminished but still remain, while at the same time, it would be borked for the occasional clam forger. That would then lead to a "either make a whole ton of them, or don't bother to make any" type philosophy.

If there was going to be a limit on clams, I think it would be better to be per-player rather than overall. This would prevent any player from hoarding them (which is the goal, I think), while still allowing them to be used normally by the non-hoarders.

I think that having a reasonable limit on the number of clams (what that number is, is debatable, of course), combined with some improvements to the water path to add some decent rituals as an attractive alternative use of water gems, would solve the problem.

[Scott Hebert]

Another interesting thing about Clams.

Can you name a Water nation that can't use Astral Pearls well?

Atlantis - Water, Astral
R'lyeh - Water, Astral
Base Pythium - Astral, Water
Mictlan - lots of stuff, Water, Astral
etc.

About the only one is Caelum, and it doesn't preclude a Pretender that can make Clams.

Part of the problem with Clams is that the output (pearls) are directly useful to those nations best able to make them. It's not just an indirect benefit.

As a counterexample, if the Clams made, say, Air gems, a lot fewer nations would profit from them. (Caelum would turn into a big winner, though.) Not suggesting a change to the product, just a look at the other influences.

To me, Astral Magic is overpowered, and Water Magic is underpowered, so it's not hard to see in the least why an item that converts Water Gems to Astral Pearls is considered overpowered.

Bayushi Tasogare