Smoke candles

[chuckfourth]

Hello,
I think some german vehicles may be missing their smoke candles.
From http://www.wwiivehicles.com/germany/...iii-ausf-g.asp "Smoke candles had armor added" in game auf L is the first pz III to get smoke
The quote states that auf g had smoke and infers that auf f had smoke. Auf e and possibly all the way back to auf a for all I know had smoke, pz 3 being the main battle tank and hence needing smoke candles.
Also
http://www.wwiivehicles.com/germany/...iii-ausf-h.asp if you look at the third picture down you will see a box mounted on the rear of this vehicle with the german cross on it. This is the armoured box around the rear mounted smoke dischargers. On pictures of models earlier than auf G the smoke dischargers are unarmoured and so visible. see
http://www.wwiivehicles.com/germany/...ii-pzbefwg.asp
shows auf d Panzerbefehlswagen with smoke.
The puma also has smoke, doesnt in the game. see
http://www.wwiivehicles.com/germany/.../sdKfz-234.asp
some 222 also seem to have had smoke, see
http://www.geocities.com/Pentagon/3620/sdkfz222.htm
there they are at the lower front on the second picture down. or
http://www.panzernet.net/panzernet/f...la/222/038.jpg
Best Regards Chuck.

[chuckfourth]

Hi There
I notice that the puma now has smoke candles and quite a few of the pz 3s (auf e onwards), thanks for that but I think that perhaps these got missed out?

584 "PzKw IIIg-3.7cm"
850 "PzKw IIIj"
869 "PzKw IIIj/1"
940 "PzKw IIIh"
941 "PzKw IIIj"
942 "PzKw IIIj/1"
010 "PzKw IIIh"
011 "PzKw IIIj"
and possibly
203 "PzKw III Tauch"

None of these has smoke candles but all should have I think?
Best Regards Chuck.

[blitzkreig]

After going through me sources on this topic the only Pz III models with smoke launchers I've actually seen photographs of are the late production J, L & M models. All picutres being dated 1943.

I have seen pictures of the Puma fitted with smoke candles as well as several pictures of the 7.5cm armed Sdkfz 233 armoured car with smoke launchers fitted, taken in Tunsia sometime in 1943 (the 233 does not curently have smoke launchers fitted in game)

I'd put it out to argument that the introduction of smoke candles to german vechicles began mid war from some time in 1943 as I've yet to see a photograph of pre-1943 vehicles fitted with smoke launchers.

Chucks Sdkfz 222 picutre clearly show smoke launchers but no date to the pictures. I'm afraidd Chuck I'm unable to clearly make out the smoke launchers on the Pz III links you gave. The screen resolution of the pictures wasn't very good on my pc.


My photograph sources:

Source: Standard Catalog of German Military Vechicles by David Doyle
Source: German Tanks of WW2 by DR S Hart & Dr R Hart

[redcoat2]

The Panzer III Ausf. F, G and H carried a rack of five smoke bombs in a box on the back of the vehicle. They could be used to create a smoke screen that the tank could reverse into. Some later versions of the Panzer III had this rack of smoke bombs concealed beneath the engine air-outlet cowling. Other later versions - including the Ausf. M - had smoke dischargers on the side on the turret to lay smoke in front of the tank.

Source: Osprey New Vanguard 27 - Panzerkampfwagen III Medium Tank 1936-44.

[DRG]

Originally Posted by redcoat2

The Panzer III Ausf. F, G and H carried a rack of five smoke bombs in a box on the back of the vehicle. They could be used to create a smoke screen that the tank could reverse into. Some later versions of the Panzer III had this rack of smoke bombs concealed beneath the engine air-outlet cowling. Other later versions - including the Ausf. M - had smoke dischargers on the side on the turret to lay smoke in front of the tank.

Source: Osprey New Vanguard 27 - Panzerkampfwagen III Medium Tank 1936-44.

That source happen to mention a date this was common practice ?

Don

[Marek_Tucan]

Anyway this is on the same level as smoke created by puping Diesel into the exhaust, used on T-55 and so on - ie not a smoke discharger per se. To simulate that in game it would be correct to have a puff of smoke created in the same hex as the vehicle is and then you'd have to reverse to get into cover.

[redcoat2]

Originally Posted by DRG

That source happen to mention a date this was common practice ?

Don

Not specifically. The book first mentions the smoke bombs in the first chapter about the development of the Panzer III.

On Page 8 it says “The Ausf. H began entering service at the end of 1940 … Like the Ausf. F and G it carried a rack of smoke bombs in a prominent box at the rear, the operation of which is described below.”

On the next page it says, “The Ausfuhrung M appeared in 1942 … Two batteries of three smoke bomb dischargers were fitted to the turret sides, arranged so as to drop a pattern ahead of the tank if fired simultaneously.”

Most of the information about the Panzer III’s smoke bombs is in a paragraph in the next chapter (on Page 17):

[chuckfourth]

Heres an interesting quote from
http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums...ad.php?t=43178

The entire article is well worth a read.

"The Pz.IV Ausf.A/B/C/D and the StuG III Ausf.A in France in 1940 could fire a smoke shell with the 7.5cm L/24. The German tanks were not equipped with smoke dischargers prior to 1941. The use of smoke dischargers was more generalized in the following battles in Russia and North Africa. They were mounted on the rear portions of the mudguards, facing forwards, or on the sides of the turret. For instance, on a Pz38(t), they would mount a 1/2 cylindrical shaped cylinder propped up by a piece of steel that would contain 3 smoke projectiles per side.
Nevertheless, beside the smoke shells fired by the artillery or by the Pz.IV or StuG III, the Germans modified several tanks by mounting a kind of smoke dispenser on the rear of the tank. It was a rack with German infantry smoke candles ("Nebelkerzen"). These candles just "burned" and made smoke on the rear of the tank instead of real smoke dischargers making a smoke screen in front of the tank. It is not sure that there was a triggering system from inside the tank. This system was already used in Poland in 1939."

Points I found interesting,
38t had smoke candles doesnt have any in-game.
I think in my travels Ive seen pictures of pz 2 with the smoke candles mounted on the mudgards firing forward not quite sure about it though Ill check.
AS I read it smoke candles enter service in 41. prior to this date the vehicles in question used the 'Nebelkerzen'

I can't imagine that they didnt have a triggering system from inside, stopping the tank and jumping out to light them seems impracticle.

203 "PzKw III Tauch" is pz 3 auf e so may have had them if they could survive a dunking

Not sure about the 222 some had the Nebelkerzen some didnt, as one can find a picture of pretty much any vehicle that has smoke candles without them fitted, maybe the 222 should get candles also.

My apologies in the origional post the picture of the pz 3 with armoured Nebelkerzen is the 5th picture down not the 3rd.

[DRG]

Originally Posted by chuckfourth

the Germans modified several tanks by mounting a kind of smoke dispenser on the rear of the tank.

"Several" tanks ??

Do you seriously think we should add a smoke dispenser to some of these models becasue the Germans modified "several" of them?

I will consider the 1941 date for actual smoke dischargers

Don

[Mobhack]

And this rack of smoke bombs is not a smoke discharger in SP game terms. S/D project bombs forward, immediately hiding the screened vehicle by breaking LOS.

It's more like a smoke candle/pot or diesel-injection smoke system, and those are not modelled in the game (WW2 or MBT) as not worth the coding for the negligible usefulness. As someone pointed out, you would have to reverse into or behind the smoke to screen yourself even if you had the MP left to do so, or be in retreat mode.

The only S/D that I would be interested in hearing about for the Nazis would be the projector type as used in the game. Those seem to be rare until 43 or so from the look of things.

Cheers
Andy