Smoke candles

[DRG]

Originally Posted by redcoat2

The Panzer III Ausf. F, G and H carried a rack of five smoke bombs in a box on the back of the vehicle. They could be used to create a smoke screen that the tank could reverse into. Some later versions of the Panzer III had this rack of smoke bombs concealed beneath the engine air-outlet cowling. Other later versions - including the Ausf. M - had smoke dischargers on the side on the turret to lay smoke in front of the tank.

Source: Osprey New Vanguard 27 - Panzerkampfwagen III Medium Tank 1936-44.

That source happen to mention a date this was common practice ?

Don

[redcoat2]

Originally Posted by DRG

That source happen to mention a date this was common practice ?

Don

Not specifically. The book first mentions the smoke bombs in the first chapter about the development of the Panzer III.

On Page 8 it says “The Ausf. H began entering service at the end of 1940 … Like the Ausf. F and G it carried a rack of smoke bombs in a prominent box at the rear, the operation of which is described below.”

On the next page it says, “The Ausfuhrung M appeared in 1942 … Two batteries of three smoke bomb dischargers were fitted to the turret sides, arranged so as to drop a pattern ahead of the tank if fired simultaneously.”

Most of the information about the Panzer III’s smoke bombs is in a paragraph in the next chapter (on Page 17):

[Mobhack]

And this rack of smoke bombs is not a smoke discharger in SP game terms. S/D project bombs forward, immediately hiding the screened vehicle by breaking LOS.

It's more like a smoke candle/pot or diesel-injection smoke system, and those are not modelled in the game (WW2 or MBT) as not worth the coding for the negligible usefulness. As someone pointed out, you would have to reverse into or behind the smoke to screen yourself even if you had the MP left to do so, or be in retreat mode.

The only S/D that I would be interested in hearing about for the Nazis would be the projector type as used in the game. Those seem to be rare until 43 or so from the look of things.

Cheers
Andy

[blitzkreig]

Mobhack & DRG

I can see your point. Seems daft to alter the oobs for things that may have been. I've still yet to see any photographic eviednece that smoke launchers were fitted to any German vehcile before late 1943. What I'm curious about is the smoke dispensers shown on chucks Sdkfz 222 pics and the ones I've seen on sdkfz 233 in Tunisa 1943 which look the same type, though these were mounted in two sets of three on the front of the armoured cars front mud guards.

These smoke laucnhers are very different in appearance to the ones fitted to the German tanks. Does any one know if these are smoke launchers as modeled in the game mechanics or the "smoke candles" Chuck has talked about.

Any ideas?

[blitzkreig]

Originally Posted by blitzkreig

Mobhack & DRG

I've still yet to see any photographic eviednece that smoke launchers were fitted to any German vehcile before late 1943.?

typo chaps, I meant to say early 1943!

[redcoat2]

Originally Posted by Mobhack

And this rack of smoke bombs is not a smoke discharger in SP game terms. S/D project bombs forward, immediately hiding the screened vehicle by breaking LOS.

Yup. I suspected that the early ‘smoke candle discharger’ would not be a smoke discharger in game terms when I added my info from the Osprey guide.

The same stern-based dischargers (armoured or unarmoured) were of course also fitted to early Sturmgeschutz.

[redcoat2]

Originally Posted by Mobhack

The only S/D that I would be interested in hearing about for the Nazis would be the projector type as used in the game. Those seem to be rare until 43 or so from the look of things.

I’ve seen several pictures of the Flamingo – which was used during Operation Barbarossa in 1941 - which seem to show what may be three forward-projecting smoke dischargers. Here is one of them:



Source: Concord’s Armor Battles on the Eastern Front, Vol. 1.

There are a few more pictures/photos in this thread in the WW2inColor forum:

http://www.ww2incolor.com/forum/showthread.php?t=3832

[thatguy96]

Discharger types were very common for flame tanks as one of the accepted tactics (at least according to Osprey's Flammpanzer book) was to cover targets in flame fuel, without igniting it, and then launch a smoke grenade at it to ignite the entire area.

[redcoat2]

Originally Posted by thatguy96

Discharger types were very common for flame tanks as one of the accepted tactics (at least according to Osprey's Flammpanzer book) was to cover targets in flame fuel, without igniting it, and then launch a smoke grenade at it to ignite the entire area.

Hmmmm. Maybe they were used for that purpose rather than for self-protection? Or … perhaps they could be used for either purpose?

[Mobhack]

Originally Posted by redcoat2

Hmmmm. Maybe they were used for that purpose rather than for self-protection? Or … perhaps they could be used for either purpose?

Smoke and para-illuminating rounds are usually pyrotechnic devices of some sort.

for example, on a recruits course we had the 2 inch mortars taken out of storage (they were armoury queens, only ever seen at the recruit course really).

The 2 inch smoke round had little holes at the base of the body, and when ignited these operated to spray fire and smoke out like a big firework.

The rounds went into the Barry Buddon turf, and likely were buried at the point that the stream of fireworks were at grass level. Result was a platoon of recruits were pulled off the rifle range nearby to help our class beat out grass fires that had started in the turf. We then had to fill up a couple of water trailers and tow these behind land rovers to soak the area in order to get the pockets of smouldering embers deep in the turf. In subsequent recruit courses, they simply fired off a few illuminating rounds in daytime since those were burned out above ground.

Same happened when on the ranges at Vogelsang in the hot summer a year or 2 later (76?) - but it was either tracers or the falling stream of hot cartridges from some Westland Scout helicopters firing GPMGs. Same drill of a platoon of guys with beater poles for a couple of hours, then towed water trailers to soak off the smouldering turf.

Cheers
Andy