No more MP for Hinnom?

[Zeldor]

Gandalf:

But there are way too many nations like that in EA that need more than 1 nation to beat - Hinnom, Lanka, Niefel, Mictlan, so where can you get enough nations to take them down? And which first? You take down one, another gets enough time to gets way too powerful.

[Gandalf Parker]

Actually the more nations you add to a list like that, the more it becomes something that doesnt need to be fixed. If it was just one that automatically held a top level then it would need to be tweaked.

You also seem to be looking at only one part of the game. Mictlan for example is one of the nations most listed as the number one failing in AI.

[calmon]

Originally Posted by Gandalf Parker

Mictlan for example is one of the nations most listed as the number one failing in AI.

Maybe just because the fact the AI can't handle the EA and LA mictlan inexisting normal dominion spread.

[Gandalf Parker]

Right. Thats the problem.
I was just pointing out that a "major failing" in one area doesnt always mean its broken. tweaking a nation needs to be done carefully to not fix something in one area and break it in another. I wouldnt consider it to be a good fix if Hinnom were balanced perfectly for MP play on average maps but it broke it for small and large maps, or for AI, or for solo play.

[Edratman]

This thread is a pleasant change of pace. First time in close to 2 years that there are a lot of complaints about a nation being too strong. It is always, "XXXXX" is too weak.

[Xietor]

I disagree baalz. The fact that they were smoked in Kingmaker shows they can easily be taken down 2 v 1. There were decent players all around.

You have to use diplomacy in MP games. Otherwise stick to single players. If you are in a game and LA Ermor is eating your neighbor, and you do not help him, then he gobbles you next, do not complain that LA Ermor is too powerful.

You should have got off your arse and ganged him. All races are not equal. Mp games require diplomacy to bring down overpowered races. The fact that your style is to sit and build up rather than fight early wars is irrelevant.

Situations often dictate strategy. The motto for weaker nations is," United we stand, divided we fall." If you are one of these antisocial guys that do not like diplomacy, then you are likely not going to a be a very good at playing dominions in the multiplay context.

If a race cannot beat 2 on 1, it is not overpowered.

[Sombre]

Originally Posted by Xietor

If a race cannot beat 2 on 1, it is not overpowered.

And what is the reasoning behind that seemingly arbitrary statement?

[Zeldor]

Hinnom can beat 2:1. It can beat 5:1 some nations. Saying fight is easy when you have nation able to fight anyone early on. There are many nations that won't survive 20 turns against almost any opponent if not diplomacy. That is not a balance.

[DonCorazon]

Originally Posted by Xietor

I disagree baalz. The fact that they were smoked in Kingmaker shows they can easily be taken down 2 v 1. There were decent players all around.

You have to use diplomacy in MP games. Otherwise stick to single players. If you are in a game and LA Ermor is eating your neighbor, and you do not help him, then he gobbles you next, do not complain that LA Ermor is too powerful.

You should have got off your arse and ganged him. All races are not equal. Mp games require diplomacy to bring down overpowered races. The fact that your style is to sit and build up rather than fight early wars is irrelevant.

Situations often dictate strategy. The motto for weaker nations is," United we stand, divided we fall." If you are one of these antisocial guys that do not like diplomacy, then you are likely not going to a be a very good at playing dominions in the multiplay context.

If a race cannot beat 2 on 1, it is not overpowered.

X, I disagree as to the assessment of Hinnom's impact on an MP game. Here is a quote from Niefelheim who in Hellscape is just slightly more powerful than Hinnom at the moment, though my money is on Hinnom to win this game:

Originally Posted by Executor

It would appear that both Lanka and Pangaea are trying to put out the Abysian flames, and Hinnom is being attacked from all directions, whilst Rlyeh is surely planning a military campaign of its own with all that army building up.

And while the entire world is at war, the blue flames of Niefelheim grow stronger and await the right moment to fulfill their destiny and became the rulers of this world!!!

Wait...

EDIT: Muahahahahahahaha!!!!
That's better.

So basically, Hinnom has been ganged up on by its two neighbors, Mictlan and Fomoria. Both of the attackers have been beaten down and lost any chance of winning the game. In the classic prisoner's dilmena we were damned if we attacked and damned if we didn't. Meanwhile, Niefel has turtled his way into a respectable position. But I predict as soon as Fomoria and Mictlan crumble, Hinnom's graphs will jump as they do in Omni's first post.

The point of this cautionary tale is, at least in Hellscape, Hinnom creates what I'd call an unfun dynamic as the nation forces its neighbor's into a losing binary outcome. And anyone who doesn't neighbor Hinnom, is clearly going to turtle. So you can almost predict the outcome of a game up front.

Anyway, I don't feel very strong about it because I don't mind losing and I do like variety, but I would caution people that the MP game experience with Hinnom is not as interesting.

[K]

Originally Posted by Xietor

I disagree baalz. The fact that they were smoked in Kingmaker shows they can easily be taken down 2 v 1. There were decent players all around.

You have to use diplomacy in MP games. Otherwise stick to single players. If you are in a game and LA Ermor is eating your neighbor, and you do not help him, then he gobbles you next, do not complain that LA Ermor is too powerful.

You should have got off your arse and ganged him. All races are not equal. Mp games require diplomacy to bring down overpowered races. The fact that your style is to sit and build up rather than fight early wars is irrelevant.

Situations often dictate strategy. The motto for weaker nations is," United we stand, divided we fall." If you are one of these antisocial guys that do not like diplomacy, then you are likely not going to a be a very good at playing dominions in the multiplay context.

If a race cannot beat 2 on 1, it is not overpowered.

There is also an element of "right tool for the right job."

In this very thread we have a Hinnom invasion army being beaten by Kailasa. That is just stupidly surprising in my book based on the relative strength and cost of their troops, but after some thought I worked out a few early game scenarios where it could happen. Mostly, they revolve around Kailasa's unique strengths and Hinnon's particular weaknesses.

A nation's overall strength is determined not just their potential strengths, but the numbers of tactics and strategies they are were able to develop over the course of play to meet the different situations they will encounter.