Mod Underwater Gameplay Improvement Mod - Page 9

Burnsaber · #81 November 9th, 2009, 06:00 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Illuminated One

Hmm, I didn't know that.
I neither think it's the lack of access into the water that's a problem nor the lack of uw summons (so no to 1, 2, 4). Seriously you don't just start a war because you can but because you want to profit (and you'll certainly wait until you either have good summons, thugs or some powerful magic, I really see noone attacking an uw nation with const-0 gear and nationals and winning, if there is any balance). The problem is simply that after you have won the war (or invested into labs and temples in the course of your conquest) you risk loosing everything to the next best uw sneak attack (oceania?) without PD and castles - easier access actually makes this worse (because if you can tir can also).

You have a good point about the lack of pd, but (once again) it's one of those things I can't mod.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Illuminated One

So I'd suggest simply making the kelp forest spell reasonably cheap - not cheap and accesible enough to make it spammable, though.

With all respect, that's quite hard. Very hard in fact. "Accessible", "cheap" and "not spammable" is a bit of a oxymoron and all those terms are subjective. Something can be unspammable in a small game, but be spammable in a large game. There is a good reason why "Wizard's Tower" and the like are so high in the research.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Illuminated One

It's fine if it's castable uw only, since this requires you to hold a uw province for a couple of turns (instead of stealth take + instafort).

UW is so easily defendable that I really wouldn't mind there being a trick that land nations could use to take really firm hold in the seas. Besides, the sea player still has a chance to teleport in before the fort is build. But it's sort of moot point to discuss changes that might not get implemented at all.

(and the fort wouldn't be too useful for you anyway with the sucky recruits).

As for making the Asp Turtle a commander, that's very good idea. I'll probably make the leviathan a commander too, so that it won't be overshadowed by the Asp.

Squirrelloid · #82 November 9th, 2009, 06:55 PM

I should note there are disadvantages to making units into commanders, such as being able to be targetted by Mindhunt. I'd rather leave leviathans and Asp Turtles as is, fwiw. You can always GoR them if you want commanders, after all.

Edit: Things that might help UW nations

More amphibious summons castable underwater. Especially for W magic. W has lots of summons, but most of them are either land only or aquatic and UW only. Makes breaking onto land hard. Something in the Conj 2-4 range would be esp nice.

EA Atlantis needs its infantry to be less of a one-trick pony. Basically, it has 10 flavors of the same thing along an armor gradient. Some harpoon troops would help (LA Atlantis has them, so there's some thematic justification). Some troops with actually decent defense might also be nice - i think the best they manage now is like 11.

Is it possible to make a spell which transforms aquatic troops into an alternate amphibious form? I mean, I know you can define a new creature type that is a copy with the amphibious tag instead. But can you target normal troops en-masse with such a spell?

kianduatha · #83 November 9th, 2009, 08:26 PM

There already is something in Conj 2-4: the Sea Troll. It's just that Sea Trolls suck because they have no armor or weapons or defense or attack.

I guess you could make Kraken amphibious; but only if Sea King's Court also gets some trolls riding them.

I guess Coral Guards could stand to be a bit more useful; I'd feel pretty comfortable making Sharkskin armor 0 def 0 enc, Coral Cuirass 0 def 1 enc, and Coral Hauberk -1 def 2 enc. Even just pick one of those, and you'll have someone with 12 defense at least. I'd personally go for the coral changes, given that Coral Guards need something more than 1 to attack and defense to justify fully double the cost of normal Shamblers.

Squirrelloid · #84 November 9th, 2009, 09:00 PM

Sea Trolls also cost cash in upkeep, unlike most summons, and a lot of cash at that. This makes them not very viable.

kianduatha · #85 November 12th, 2009, 12:23 AM

Looking into things for EA Atlantis, I finally noticed what their coastal troop recruit is. If only I had realized it sooner in my multiplayer game. I am going to destroy R'lyeh so hard with these. High attack, high defense, decent protection, shield, high magic resist, barbs to deal with Lobo Guards, decent encumbrance. I think once I get some coastal castles up I'm never recruiting anything else again unless I need fire/cold immunity. Combine that with Atlantis being able to actually summon Kydnides with the Shamans, I think we're set for them.

Squirrelloid · #86 November 12th, 2009, 11:27 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kianduatha

Looking into things for EA Atlantis, I finally noticed what their coastal troop recruit is. If only I had realized it sooner in my multiplayer game. I am going to destroy R'lyeh so hard with these. High attack, high defense, decent protection, shield, high magic resist, barbs to deal with Lobo Guards, decent encumbrance. I think once I get some coastal castles up I'm never recruiting anything else again unless I need fire/cold immunity. Combine that with Atlantis being able to actually summon Kydnides with the Shamans, I think we're set for them.

That only helps if you can get *out* of the water.

In EA that's really hard, especially when Oceania will kill you if you do anything other than prepare to fight them.

kianduatha · #87 November 12th, 2009, 12:43 PM

Not under this mod; Research Alt-2 and Oceania's Knights of the Deep are no longer a problem. Boil is actually as far as I know entirely created for EA Atlantis to deal with those pesky Knights--it's a 100 precision aoe 1 spell that does 8+AN damage, so it goes through all their defenses like butter.

Squirrelloid · #88 November 12th, 2009, 01:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kianduatha

Not under this mod; Research Alt-2 and Oceania's Knights of the Deep are no longer a problem. Boil is actually as far as I know entirely created for EA Atlantis to deal with those pesky Knights--it's a 100 precision aoe 1 spell that does 8+AN damage, so it goes through all their defenses like butter.

Yes, Earth Meld + Boil = lots of dead KotD. Of course, you need to send a bunch of BKs to the front lines to make extensive use of this.

kianduatha · #89 January 15th, 2010, 07:21 AM

Hrm, resurrection time I suppose.

Wouldn't it make sense to give Ichtycentaurs and Trident Knights hoof attacks? You know, like the centaurs they're based off of?

Burnsaber · #90 January 23rd, 2010, 04:23 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kianduatha

Hrm, resurrection time I suppose.

Wouldn't it make sense to give Ichtycentaurs and Trident Knights hoof attacks? You know, like the centaurs they're based off of?

I suppose. I was under the impression that they get hoof attack on land. Impact weapons would likely suck underwater so I can sort of understand why they don't have it.

I guess the question boils down to if they need it. I was under the impression that ichtycentaurs are good troops. Sure, they have trouble dealing damage, but they shouldn't be perfect. MA Oceanian's problem is not in its troops, but it's mages.