Mod: Underwater Gameplay Improvement Mod

[Illuminated One]

Originally Posted by Burnsaber

Once again, not moddable. In case we still need to boost the levels of UW access, I have some ideas. Note that I'm keeping these in reserve, I'll only implement them if they are really needed.:

1) Give all units that don't breathe poor ambhibian (Bane Lords + many other undead, elementals, Vinemen, and so forth).
2) New easy nature summon, "Kelpmen", who get stronger in UW.
3) A spell that builds a UW fort, but is only castable from land.
4) Turbocharge UW access by making the breathing items uber-easy to forge (I'm talking about making them level 0 and 1 cost for all of them).

Hmm, I didn't know that.
I neither think it's the lack of access into the water that's a problem nor the lack of uw summons (so no to 1, 2, 4). Seriously you don't just start a war because you can but because you want to profit (and you'll certainly wait until you either have good summons, thugs or some powerful magic, I really see noone attacking an uw nation with const-0 gear and nationals and winning, if there is any balance). The problem is simply that after you have won the war (or invested into labs and temples in the course of your conquest) you risk loosing everything to the next best uw sneak attack (oceania?) without PD and castles - easier access actually makes this worse (because if you can tir can also).
So I'd suggest simply making the kelp forest spell reasonably cheap - not cheap and accesible enough to make it spammable, though. It's fine if it's castable uw only, since this requires you to hold a uw province for a couple of turns (instead of stealth take + instafort).

[Burnsaber]

Originally Posted by Illuminated One

Hmm, I didn't know that.
I neither think it's the lack of access into the water that's a problem nor the lack of uw summons (so no to 1, 2, 4). Seriously you don't just start a war because you can but because you want to profit (and you'll certainly wait until you either have good summons, thugs or some powerful magic, I really see noone attacking an uw nation with const-0 gear and nationals and winning, if there is any balance). The problem is simply that after you have won the war (or invested into labs and temples in the course of your conquest) you risk loosing everything to the next best uw sneak attack (oceania?) without PD and castles - easier access actually makes this worse (because if you can tir can also).

You have a good point about the lack of pd, but (once again) it's one of those things I can't mod.

Originally Posted by Illuminated One

So I'd suggest simply making the kelp forest spell reasonably cheap - not cheap and accesible enough to make it spammable, though.

With all respect, that's quite hard. Very hard in fact. "Accessible", "cheap" and "not spammable" is a bit of a oxymoron and all those terms are subjective. Something can be unspammable in a small game, but be spammable in a large game. There is a good reason why "Wizard's Tower" and the like are so high in the research.

Originally Posted by Illuminated One

It's fine if it's castable uw only, since this requires you to hold a uw province for a couple of turns (instead of stealth take + instafort).

UW is so easily defendable that I really wouldn't mind there being a trick that land nations could use to take really firm hold in the seas. Besides, the sea player still has a chance to teleport in before the fort is build. But it's sort of moot point to discuss changes that might not get implemented at all.

(and the fort wouldn't be too useful for you anyway with the sucky recruits).

As for making the Asp Turtle a commander, that's very good idea. I'll probably make the leviathan a commander too, so that it won't be overshadowed by the Asp.