German OOB 16 Corrections/Suggestions

[Pibwl]

Okay, here's what I spotted, while working on pictures. As a reference I use mainly different booklets Panzer Tracts by T. Jentz, being probably ultimate sources on German armour.

1 Pzkw-Ib - proper picture for Ib is 21015 or 18075 (42015 shows Ia and is used for Chinese Ia). Ib was delivered since 8/36 (now 9/35) (Jentz).

By the way: wouldn't "PzKpfw" for all tanks look nicer and more original?... (Apart from Panthers, that don't really need PzKw/PzKpfw prefix) Also, original designations had capital Ausf. letters. I understand, that it was probably decided years ago, but it's just my suggestion which you might ignore...

11, 850, 941 PzKw IIIj - it has picture 5 of older variant E-G (old sprocket wheels)

12, 851, 869, 942 PzKw IIIj/1 - picture 6 shows much older B-D variant.
They have the same icon, as short-gun IIIj.
Wouldn't a better name be Pzkw-IIIJ L60?

033,722 Brummbaer - according to Jentz, this name of Sturmpanzer IV was conceived by the Allied intelligence only.

059 sFH 13 LrS (f) - first completed only in June 1942 (Jentz) (now: 4/42). (It should be armed with 15cm sFH-13 howitzer with probably much more range, not sIG-33 infantry gun.)

062 Moebelwagen-2cm - according to Jentz, only one experimental Mobelwagen with Flakvierling was completed, and then it was decided to continue development of 3.7cm Mobelwagen, and "the single experimental chassis was converted to mount a 3.7cm Flak 43" (contrary to popular belief, spread by old Tamiya model...)
Maybe it could be changed to late SdKfz-7/1 with Flakvierling and armoured cab, available from late 1942?

065 sIG Ib - picture 133 shows sIG 38 ausf H (below)

066 sIG38(t) Grille - early model ausf H (with combat compartment in a middle), has a picture 35 of late variant M

155 SdKfz 69 Protze (light truck) - should be just Kfz 69 Protze. But we have another unit 453 Kfz 69 (utility vehicle), and one of them might be renamed Kfz 70, which was a designation of light truck, while Kfz 69 was a designation of artillery tractor body.

157 Maultier - this should be actually not Maultier (name of half-track truck), but Panzerwerfer 42

303, 304 PzKw 9TP(p) - science fiction units. 9TP didn't even exist in Polish army, not to mention German army. 303 could be ordinary 7TP, with front armour 2 - there are known photos of captured tanks, although they were probably not used as frontline machines. They were not numerous anyway. There are nice photos of German 7TPs, that I can provide.
As for 304, it's rather impossible, that any survived after 1941-42.

324 Flak36/Zugkrwgn - 3.7cm flak, has a wrong picture of SdKfz-10/4 (2cm). I don't know, what it is supposed to be, because there is a separate unit #483 SdKfz 7/2 and they are totally inconsistent (crew 10 vs 6, size etc). #324 could be earlier SdKfz 6/2, actually produced from June 39 (now: 1/39), but its data should be similar (it was a bit smaller, than 7/2). According to Jentz, both had crew of 7. On the other hand, unit #483 could be late SdKfz 7/2 with armoured cab, available from 1943.

337, 341, 349 HS-123 - better name Hs 123 (and consistent with others)

352 PzKw IIIa/d - proper picture for b-d is 27514 (it has a picture 4 of Pz IIIe.)

404 PzKw IIIb/d (s) - same as 352

430 PzKw IIIL has a picture 23145 showing apparently PzKpfw-IV. It has icon with skirts, while it has no Heat side armour.

433 Flammpanzer III has icon with skirts, while it has no Heat side armour

561 PzKw IVd - possible error in a name - it has a picture of IVf2 and long gun.

583, 584 PzKw IIIf-3.7cm, PzKw IIIg-3.7cm - proper picture is 4 - they have picture 5 of 5cm-gun variant (bigger barrel, external mantlet), used for IIIj in the game in addition.

Regards
Michal

[DRG]

Originally Posted by Pibwl

Okay, here's what I spotted, while working on pictures. As a reference I use mainly different booklets Panzer Tracts by T. Jentz, being probably ultimate sources on German armour.

Well Michal since you are a Jentz-o-phile perhaps you can confire he wrote.....

While the Pz.Kpfw.III Ausf.J with the 5 cm Kw.K. L/60 where produced from December 1941 to March 1942, they where all officially renamed Ausf.L in April 1942.

and......

There was absolutely no difference between a Panzerkampfwagen III Ausf.J mit Kw.K L/60 and a Panzerkampfwagen III Ausf.L mit Kw.K L/60. The Ausf.L was merely a new designation that came into effect between 28 March and 3 April 1942 for a Panzerkampfwagen III mit Kw.K L/60. All Pz.Kpfw.III Ausf.J produced with the 5 cm Kw.K L/60 prior to April 1942 where also renamed Ausf.L but the Fgst.Nr.Schild (chassis serial number plate) remained stamped with the letter J.

If so I can free up at least three unit slots in the German OOB

Don

[Pibwl]

Unfortunately, I haven't came across a book on late Pz-IIIs. But if you want to free some slots (does it not spoil scenarios?), I've made a study on early Pz-IIIs from Jentz books I've learnt much on these tanks on the occasion.

I'll list them in chronological order, rather than numerical:

352 PzKw IIIa/d - hull and turret sides and rear had 14.5mm, so maybe armour should be 2? (now 1). On the contrary, turret front had 16mm (now 4).
They were withdrawn from combat units by spring of 1940 (now: 8/41) - apart from "some" tanks of PzAbt z.b.V.40 assigned for special operations in far North starting in summer 1941.
As I wrote, proper picture is 27514.
Maybe two CMGs should be replaced with a paired weapon 154, like in Pz-I?

404 PzKw IIIb/d (s) - there's no info on any strengthening of their armour, which should be as above.
In this case, maybe 352 should represent Pz-IIIa only, which had the same data, but very different look?

BTW: Jents wrote, that HE round for 37mm was adapted as standard issue in Feb.40, but I don't know, if it means, that there were none before.

279 PzKw IIIe - first IIIe appeared in 1/39, with significant deliveries from 7/39 (now: 6/40), and were used in Polish campaign.
Turret front was only 30mm (now 5). Rear hull of E/F was 20mm slightly sloped - up to 30deg (now 3) (it should differ from Pz-IIIg, which had 30mm)

All 37mm-armed Pz-III should have a twin CMG in a turret (refers also to tanks below).

07 PzKw IIIe-3.7cm [variant with sabot ammo, first date 6/40 OK] - armour as above.
Radio code 82 is incorrect (for the French campaign at least) - IIIe wasn't a numerous variant (only 96 made). In fact, its data should be identical, as #583 IIIf below.

583 PzKw IIIf-3.7cm [variant with sabot ammo] - sabot ammo was officially accepted in 6/40 (now: 7/40). In fact, PzIIIf without sabot appeared in 10/39 (or even a bit earlier), but this period might be as well covered by 279 Pz-IIIe.
Radio code might be 82 - it was the most common variant during the French campaign.
Notes on armour and twin CMG as above (as IIIe 3.7cm).
They were used until early 1941 at least (now 9/40) (last were produced in 7/40)
As I wrote before, proper picture is 4.

584 PzKw IIIg-3.7cm [variant with sabot ammo] - sabot ammo was introduced in 6/40 (now 9/40) (first IIIg were completed in 3/40, though). They were sure used until early 1941 at least.
Turret for 3.7cm was identical, as PzIIIe-f, with only 30mm in front (now: 6).
There's little difference from 37mm-gun E or F - only rear armour was increased from 20 to 30mm.


08 PzKw IIIf-5cm - turret front of early 5cm variants was only 35mm (now 5), rear hull of E/F was 20mm (now 3). First date 8/40 is OK, last might be early 1941.

579 PzKw IIIe-5cm - armour as above. It seems however redundant, since it represents PzIIIe retrofitted with 5cm gun, while they were identical, as late PzIIIf, but relatively rare (only 96 basic IIIe made). They started to be converted from 12/40 BTW (now: 8/40).

It could be changed to uparmoured Pz-IIIF or G, used from 12/40, with additional 30mm front and rear plates and possibly 50mm mantlet (armour 6/3/5/5/3/3/2 in case of F or 6/3/6... in case of G). We have however uparmoured Pz-IIIh.
If it's deleted, 07 PzKw IIIe-3.7cm could be renamed simply to IIIe.

09 PzKw IIIg-5cm - first Pz-IIIg with 5cm were accepted in 7/40 (now 9/40), and it's worth to make them first available 5-cm variants. I don't know however, if sabot for 5cm should start so early (389 PzKw IIIf-5cm with sabot starts at 1/41)
Front hull armor was only 30 (now 6), turret's - 35 (now 6) - only from the end of 1940 they started to be fitted with additional plates on hull front and rear. Only late production tanks were given 50mm mantlet (it isn't known exactly when)

PzKpfw IIIh is rather OK, although turret front was only 35 or 50 mm (now 6)

Michal

[Pibwl]

I forgot one more:

389 PzKw IIIf-5cm - represents variant with 5cm sabot, from 1/41, and non-strengthened armour (since 12/40 there could be extra 30mm on front and rear, but there remained also unmodified tanks). Anyway, rear hull of F should be 2, and turret front was 35mm (there was a later variant of 50mm mantlet, but it's not clear when they started to be fitted - writing on Pz-IIIh, Jentz calls 50mm mantlet "option").

Michal

[cbo]

Originally Posted by DRG

Well Michal since you are a Jentz-o-phile perhaps you can confirm he wrote.....

While the Pz.Kpfw.III Ausf.J with the 5 cm Kw.K. L/60 where produced from December 1941 to March 1942, they where all officially renamed Ausf.L in April 1942.

and......

There was absolutely no difference between a Panzerkampfwagen III Ausf.J mit Kw.K L/60 and a Panzerkampfwagen III Ausf.L mit Kw.K L/60. The Ausf.L was merely a new designation that came into effect between 28 March and 3 April 1942 for a Panzerkampfwagen III mit Kw.K L/60. All Pz.Kpfw.III Ausf.J produced with the 5 cm Kw.K L/60 prior to April 1942 where also renamed Ausf.L but the Fgst.Nr.Schild (chassis serial number plate) remained stamped with the letter J.

If so I can free up at least three unit slots in the German OOB

Don

I dont recall how Panzer IVs are labelled in the game, but the F2 version only existed for a few months as well:

March 21st 1942:
- Ausf. F1 = Ausf. F with KwK 37 7,5cm L/24
- Ausf. F2 = Ausf. F with KwK 40 7,5cm L/43

June 5th 1942:
- All Panzer IV with the KwK 40 7,5cm L/43 to be known as Ausf. G.

The planned change for the Ausf. G was simply the new gun and associated changes to ammo stowage etc., so there was no difference between the last Ausf. F2 and the first Ausf. G

The reason for the two designations was that the upgunning planned for the Ausf. G started before the Ausf. F contract had been fulfilled, so that the last 230 Ausf. F were completed as Ausf. G, but labelled Ausf. F2 for a short period.

So you could just remove the F1s and and F2s if there are any in the OOBs - and of course people would then start pointing out the "error"

Source: Spielberger: "Begleitwagen Panzerkampfwagen IV" p. 178

Same thing with the Panzer III Ausf. J and L with the 5cm L/60 gun as per your Jentz quote from Panzer Tracts 3-3 p. 40 and 42.

[DRG]

Thanks Claus, in the case of the Pz.Kpfw.III Ausf.J there were three genuine duplicates of the J as L versions I was able to remove plus one Flammpanzer III. ( and all that caused was one minor correction of one scenario )

I'll use this info and look at the Panzer IV's and see if there are any similar duplication. If there is a legitimate reason to have it in, even for a month, I'll leave it alone.


Don

[Pibwl]

05 PzKw II Luchs B - according to Jentz&Doyle's encyclopedia, 5 cm variant was never produced...

35 StuG IIIb - according to Jentz, series completed from July 1940 (now starts at 6/40). But the only difference from Stug IIIa in the game is an addition of SMG.

059 sFH 13 LrS (f) - it was armed with 15cm sFH-13 howitzer, with range of 8600 m, not sIG-33 infantry gun (4700 m).
It would be worth to add towed 15cm sFH-13, available from 1930 by the way.

85 7.6cm PaK 36(r) - proper photo of Soviet m.1936 F-22 gun used as Pak 36 is 28012

118 Do 217J - 217J was a night fighter. Bomber could be named 217E.

132 10.5cm Haubitze - it's a detail, but a two-tail icon would be more real-like

133 12.2cm Haubitze - a detail as well, but an icon has way too long barrel

250, 263 FJg PzBuechse, GebJg PzBuechse - correct picture for PzB 39 is 70 or 27102 - now it's Solothurn or something like that

319 15.2cm FK Btr - proper picture for ML-20 gun is 23607 (although with older wheels) or 23509 - currently it's D-1 152mm howitzer (rare in German service, if any).

326 22cm Mrs Btr - strange unit, should be changed to something else IMO. Judging from a weapon 22cm Mrs 32(p), it's Polish wz.32 Skoda mortar, but there were no more, than 30 such mortars in the Polish army, part were destroyed or captured by the Soviets, and their German usage is not widely known. Besides, it wasn't a field gun, but a siege one, without HE ammo, but AP. And the photo shows something else.

414, 415 3.7cm TaK 30 - probably the picture should be 42011 - currently it's Bofors. But did such gun exist at all?...

423, 424 - Kfz 13, 14 - may I suggest new icons? Grey BA-64 could be almost perfect for Kfz 13.

449 - 5cm LeGrW 36 - picture shows some generic medium mortar, not 5 cm, which looked very specific.

464, 466 PzKw 38H 735(f), PzKw 39H 735(f) - their pictures are swapped (464 should have short gun, 466 - long one) - or there could be 27679 for a long-gun one. 937 PzKw 39H 735(f) also should have a short gun picture.

[Pibwl]

Originally Posted by Pibwl

326 22cm Mrs Btr - strange unit, should be changed to something else IMO. Judging from a weapon 22cm Mrs 32(p), it's Polish wz.32 Skoda mortar, but there were no more, than 30 such mortars in the Polish army, part were destroyed or captured by the Soviets, and their German usage is not widely known. Besides, it wasn't a field gun, but a siege one, without HE ammo, but AP. And the photo shows something else.

I've found info, that 14 were captured. But as I've said, they were siege artillery, very bulky, and HE ammo wasn't produced in Poland. Reportedly also some were captured in Yugoslavia, with different designation. More numerous was Czech heaviest artillery.

[sturmovik]

I am once again updating my custom OB pack and I am actually quite pleased that some of the suggestions/corrections I made back in 2009/10 made it into the v5 set so I figured I would make some more as they are still fresh in my mind. Please forgive me if I somehow fail to follow the suggestion procedure. Also if any of these were in fact included, but I just missed them please let me know.

Panzerkampfwagen II mit Schwimmkörper (aka Schwimmpanzer II): Amphibious Pz II developed for operation Sea lion and then used on the eastern front.

Panzer II Ausf. G : Basically a hybrid between an F and Lynx with an EW 141 main weapon that started appearing in late 41. 12 built, none apparently used in combat, but that's more that can be said for a lot of other vehicles currently in the list.

Panzer II Ausf. J : Think Panzer II G meets Panzer I F. Infantry support tank with thicker armour , but same 2cm Kwk. 22 built between 4/42 and 12/42 and were deployed to eastern front and Normandy. This would be a must include.

Flakpanzer 1: Panzer 1 with 20mm Flak gun on it. Fought in and around Stalingrad.

Panzer 38(t) Ausf G: Last 38(t) production variant with thicker turret side armor and possibly reduced ammunition load.

Munitionsträger Hummel : Ammo carrier based on a Hummel chassis that was designed to accompany Hummel units. 150 built. Might be included with formation changes.

Kugelblitz: Hot SP-AA vehicle on Pz IV chassis. Apparently some did see service at the very very end of the war.

Waffentrager 88: I have a picture of a Flak 18 gun on what looks like a Pz IId chassis and 10 years ago when I was researching the unit I remember it was referred to as a Waffentrager 88. All I have left from that research is the SP unit I created from it, but there is a picture so something existed.

Panzer III Ammo Carrier: A number of Pz III's had their turrets removed and were used as ammo carriers on the eastern front. They were called something line Munitiontrager III. Would be a nice to have if there is space.

VG 44 aka Gustloff Volkssturmgewehr: Magazine fed 7.93x33 carbine issued in 1945 to VG units. 10,000 made. Would be nice to see in some of the many VG units, but weapons slots are at a premium.

Those are my suggestions. Again I apologize if these have been discussed before.

[DRG]

Originally Posted by sturmovik

Panzer 38(t) Ausf G: Last 38(t) production variant with thicker turret side armor and possibly reduced ammunition load.

A source for that information would be helpful. The only difference in armour I can find between the E and G is the upper and lower hull front and turret front is one solid piece of 50mm armour instead of 25+25 with the result that there are fewer bolts on frontal plate, turret and engine deck.

Nothing about additional turret side armour so lets hear what you have on that ....

Don