Way TOO Intelligent

[Blue Lord]

I like the EMCON idea, but it shouldn't just be able to turn it of, just ncreasing, or decrising their activity. There is on other problem with this. Switcing back and fourt in a enemy system would allow you to see them, but they wouldn't see you. It's very complicated coding involved tough it would be fun to gave.

[Barnacle Bill]

You would have to have a memory effect, so that if you "ping" during your turn anybody in range to detect that gets a message or something at the beginning of their next turn. This could be like the message you get when somebody hits your minefield, telling you where it happened. For example "active scanner emmission from sysyem x, sector y,z".

Logically, the faster you go during the turn (i.e. the more MP's you expend), the more detectable you should be as well.

Probably a lot of coding changes, but it would make things interesting.

In Starfire, you can't just see everything in the system. There is an interaction between your sensors, what "it" is, "it's" ECM, etc... that determines at what range you can detect "it". Starfire does not get into active/passive, though.

Of course, that is exactly how it works in real life. Active sensors are like using a flashlight. You can see farther in the dark with one than without it, but everyone within a much greater distance than you can see with it knows where you are as soon as you turn it on.

[Cybes]

quote:

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Originally posted by Barnacle Bill:
You would have to have a memory effect...

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that'd be inherent in the very nature of turn-based processing. i can't imagine how you'd get notification of a sensor scan *during* the same turn it was made. at least, not in multiplayer mode - it would be possible (though inconsistant with everything else) to do it in single-player games.

quote:

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Logically, the faster you go during the turn (i.e. the more MP's you expend), the more detectable you should be as well.

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er, why? unless you assume relativistic effects like making a black-hole around yourself... in which case the whole notion of interstellar flight breaks down anyway.

a bullet is extremely difficult to detect when in flight compared to at rest - it's going too fast to see. but a speedboat at rest on the open ocean is a lot more difficult to spot than one going at full tilt - the moving one generates a highly visible wake and spray plume.

quote:

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Of course, that is exactly how it works in real life. Active sensors are like using a flashlight. You can see farther in the dark with one than without it, but everyone within a much greater distance than you can see with it knows where you are as soon as you turn it on.

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<nodnod> the idea of active vs passive sensors seems to me like a good one. it wouldn't have been all that hard to allow for when building the program, but i don't imagine it would be all that easy (or even possible) to implement at this stage.

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"Just think of it as Evolution in action" - 'Oath of Fealty', by Larry Niven & Jerry Pournelle.

[This message has been edited by Cybes (edited 21 January 2001).]

[This message has been edited by Cybes (edited 21 January 2001).]

[Astromut]

What I had envisioned would be something that had the same amount of abstraction as stealth/cloaking.

When a cloaked ship comes into an enemy system, the system owner might not know it is there depending on his sensor rating.

I want to add the CHOICE by the captain to enhance his ability to hide by not always actively sensing.

This would have the PENALTY of not being able to see objects there very well but hiding would be the priority by Choice.

This capability already exists. You would however have to add the function of turning your sensor on/off like you do stealth/cloak.

I also wanted to give this ability to facilities, so you could have a forward listening post.

"Has he seen me?"
"How long before he knows I am here?"
"Can I launch and recover fighters before he knows what hit him?"

These are the type of questions I want to ask during the game.

Thanks all for your input.

Astromut

[jimbob55]

It would be nice to have to hunt for warp points, like Starfire.
Some kind of survey type sensor / Xr component for ships to allow scanning for warp points / planets within one square?

Assigning noise values to the engine tech, so level 1 engines make lots of 'noise' and this decreases as you use higher tech engines. Scaling the noise so that large Groups of ships in a square make sensing them easier.

A simple overlay of the system with a value assigned to each square for noise. The more squares a ship moves in a turn, the higher its noise rating. The more ships in a square, the higher the noise rating again. If a battle is fought in a square this increases the noise rating some more.

Basic (fitted as standard in the bridge) sensors could detect noise as say: 1 noise point at range one, 2 at range 2 etc. Warp points make a noise rate 2.

Just off the top of my head.
Active sensors for the EMCON model would increase noise level by 5 or so. Cloaking with passive sensors would result in a negative noise modifier for the ship.

Anybody got a clue how to program this lot?

[This message has been edited by jimbob55 (edited 21 January 2001).]

[Emperor Zodd]

I think hunting for Warp points would slow the game up.

[Astromut]

The premise that SEIV represents strategic WWII combat is not completely correct.
The use of ECM/Scanners although having its parallels in WWII, are more correctly placed in the modern evironment, especially when you consider Stealth Armor (and its active/passive state).

My proposal:

1) Lower the ability for none sensor/scanner using ship/bases to detect other ship/bases.
2) Allow ship/bases to increase its sensor ability by putting its sensors in active mode (like stealth/cloaking).
3) Make ship/bases that activate its sensors easier to detect, allowing ship/bases that do NOT activate sensors a decreased chance of being spotted.

Operationally, this new activity would function like stealth/cloaking, BUT ship/fleet commanders would have to decide if it was more important to
A) find Other ships or B) Stay Hidden, just like in modern fleet wafare.

I am speculating the coding for this activity exists and that the hardest function to add would be the EMCON (emission control) statis of a ship, turning your sensors on/off.

I include the possibility of bases sharing this capability because it would allow for early stage forwrd observation bases that would not be early targets of assualt, but that might be able to give intelligence information while mantaining its concealled statis, (submarines using passive sonar to identify contacts).

I would subliment this addition with a new ship hull that was inherently more stealthy, the submarine analogy again. It would alos mean a possible new Facility/Tech Tree for sensors.

I would love the activity of SEARCHING for enemy fleets. The game allows for fleets hiding only after you include stealth/cloaking.

I also think you have way to much information about races when you first make contact. Why not have the possibility of NOT knowing other race charecteristics until you A) Make a Treaty with them B) have Combat C) Trade for the information (possibley false) with a Third Race.

Incorrect information might also be generated with the new search activity, "We sunk 3 carriers" when they only damaged 1.

To sum up, I want to increase the FOG of War. I think this makes for a better game.

Submitted for your approval

As this is my first post, let me say how impressed I am with the varying imputs. The knowledge base of the individuals here is impressive (IE Barnicle Bill is one example)

Astromut

[Zanthis]

Hidden WP:
Could easily be an option. Could actually be a three choice option:
1) Normal WPs
2) All WP outside your home system hidden
3) All WP hidden

I wonder, can you "cloak" WPs right now? Might be able too, but it would require you to get to level 2 sensors (at least). I wonder if you could use a cloaked WP if you didn't have the sensors to spot it?

Active/Passive Sensors:
There are 5 sensors in the game already: EM Active, EM Passive, Gravitic, Psychic and Temporal. Technically, that yields four types of sensors (EM Active and EM Passive are different Versions of the same sensor type).

So, if you have a really heavily cloaked ship and you entered an enemy's system, you could have active temporal sensors screaming like a mad and unless they have passive temporal sensors, they'll never spot you (or other sensors good enough to pierce your cloak).

You'd have to be able to toggle up to four different sensors between active and passive. I don't think it is impossible, or even very hard, just guessing it won't be seen in SE4. Too bad, I think it could work well.

[DirectorTsaarx]

Zanthis - good idea; makes psychic and temporal racial techs more attractive (which is good, since organic and crystalline are still the most powerful racial techs; although my personal preference is temporal, just because I like the concept).

One way to implement part of this would be adding the "Combat To Hit Offense/Defense Plus/Minus" factors to the various sensor components. Then a ship on passive would be harder to hit in combat, ships on active would be easier, etc.

Not certain how to implement outside of combat, though. Probably something along the lines of what happens in nebula/storm systems. And it would have to be applied to warp points somehow, since you can see all warp points in a nebula system now (although you can't see a planet in a nebula system unless you own the planet...)

[Barnacle Bill]

quote:

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Originally posted by Cybes:
er, why? unless you assume relativistic effects like making a black-hole around yourself... in which case the whole notion of interstellar flight breaks down anyway.

a bullet is extremely difficult to detect when in flight compared to at rest - it's going too fast to see. but a speedboat at rest on the open ocean is a lot more difficult to spot than one going at full tilt - the moving one generates a highly visible wake and spray plume.

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Passive sensors detect some sort of energy emmission. A bullet is ballistic. It is not expending any energy, at least not in a vacuum. So, in a vacuum there would be nothing to detect that would change based on speed. Firing the bullet would make a big emmission, though, and the higher the muzzle velocity (i.e. the bigger powder charge you burn) the bigger the emmission will be.

A reaction drive spacecraft, like anything we could aspire to build today, works like your bullet except that instead of being fired out a barrel it carries its fuel on board. So, when it is burning the engine it is emmitting big-time. A reaction spacecraft has to burn the engines to change course, too. No burn = fly in a straight line at constant speed forever (unless you get caught in a gravity well).

SE4 ships change course instantaneously, and lose speed when they lose engines. Ergo, they don't use reaction drives. Since they lose speed when they lose engines, they must need to run all the engines full out to get full speed. Logically, to travel less than full peed means either all the engines throttled back or some of them turned off. Either way, more speed = more energy being expended. That is what the passive sensors pick up. Ergo, the more movement points you expend during a turn the bigger your signature would be. The way to model that in the program would be that passive sensors would, at each range, have a minimum signature they could detect. The program would check your signature against that for all enemy units in the system, using your closest point of approach, and adjusting your signature strength for stealth, cloaks, speed, etc... If you pass through a sector where your current signature strength is detectable, the other guy gets an appropriate message at the beginning of his next turn. Going active with your own sensors would decrease the minimum signature for you to detect things in sectors near your ship, but greatly increase your own signature.



[This message has been edited by Barnacle Bill (edited 23 January 2001).]