The SEIV Community

[Mathias_Ice]

I recently posted this under the King of the Hill forum but I wanted to share it with the entire SEIV community as I know there are atleast several non KOTHers out there and I wanted EVERYONE to have the opportunity to view my musings.

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by geckomlis:
I have been wargaming for 20 years, mostly face-to-face strategy games or campaigns built on tactical/operational games where you see definite continuity between scenarios. Generally, the level of sportsmanship and courtesy was very high. Any one that has ever played to the finish Third Reich, World in Flames, one of Columbia’s block games, or a Star Fleet Battles campaign understands the enormous time commitment and the enormous complexity of these games. They require dedication, camaraderie, tolerance, and a sense of humor, often at one’s own expense.

SEIV PBW is my first venture into Online gaming. I have been pleasantly surprised to find that an Online game can exhibit that same sense of community, in the best sense of the word. I am not sure if this type of game attracts certain types of players or simply requires certain types of players to function, probably a little of both.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by Slick:
I would like to say that I follow this thread as if it were the "SE4 Sports Page" and I want you all to know that I think the sportsmanship shown repeatedly by all of you in the K.O.T.H. league is remarkable. I have played computer games on-line since the early '80s and I can't think of a more mature group who truly play to have fun without any of the childish antics seen elsewhere. Any disagreements here are certainly handled in an adult manner and I salute you all!

Slick.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I have been wanting to comment along these lines for a while now, but I couldn't decide whether to start a new thread or plug my comments in on some existing thread. Thanks to Slick for breaking the ice! I too have been a wargamer for some 20 years now, cutting my teeth on Avalon Hill's Tactics II (after consistently besting my dad at chess.) Finishing a game of Third Reich or Blitzkrieg is a major accomplishment and one I can only claim to have done a handful of times, against another opponent at least. (BTW there are PBEM systems out there set up for Blitzkrieg, Third Reich, Ogre, GEV and many other board games that I don't own. If anyone would be interested in something along those lines send me an email.) My thinking is that these types of games require a certain passion tied with a certain personality type. The passion is obvious; we wargamers are a breed of our own! The personality is somewhat ambiguous, but from my own lurking in these threads, both on and off topic, I have found one of the common themes to be that we all seem to be "deeper" than average thinkers. I am constantly amazed at the level of thought on such topics as politics, world events, religion, theoretical science, etc. And very notable and commendable is that despite the wide range of opinions on such "touchy" topics, for the most part, civility is the rule of the day.

This is my second serious Online gaming experience. I played Everquest for several years. I quit for two reasons; 1. the constant drain of money for the expansions and monthly fees, and 2. most (but not all) of the people in that community seemed to have the personality of a spoiled eight year old boy. My three year old son has better manners than most of the Everquest community. The maturity of this (SEIV) community is extremely refreshing. Recently there was a thread posted by one of our younger members who was depressed and seeking advice. I was stunned by the level of compassion displayed by this community! I consider it to be an honor to be a part of this community and look forward to many hours enjoying your company.

Mathias Ice

[Slynky]

I've already added my comments in "said" thread but I'll echo them here (because, apparently, I didn't make the "quote" cut... )

So, if I wax a bit long-tougued, I apologize upfront.

Ahem....( clearing throat)...

Us boardgamers, it seems to me, have always been very competitive. In some "face-to-face" games, I've even had opponents get upset and quit (and even throw counters from the board).

As we all know, the Internet makes it even easier to be "ugly" to someone you can't see. It reminds me of the people who don't have ANY PROBLEM with cutting you off in a merge/exit lane on the interstate yet won't hop in front of you in a theatre line.

But back to KOTH and sportsmanship...

As you said, Mathias, (well, kinda... ), lots of people join up with the thought of kicking Elvis out of his throne. Some win and some lose on the way to the top of the hill. But no matter what the results, I've seen dignity, playfulness, humbleness, and just all-'round good sportsmanship.

We've almost become a club. A club of good friends who can give it a shot and laugh about the outcome either way. Sure, we all want to win and get higher but all of us who have been thrown back to the bottom of the hill have laughed a bit and just started again. Why? Because it's just so darn much fun.

And, in KOTH, I've learned a LOT about playing. And I've learned it because I've asked/talked with my opponents and they have been willing to share their knowledge.

SO, for the long-winded remarks I have made, I would urge anyone to join in the KOTH fun. Doesn't matter how good you are...people will give you tips if you ask and you will learn some tricks just by playing.

AND AND, if we can keep this a "club" of friendly competition, we will ALL have a lot of fun.

Thanks to Geo for starting it (and puttin up with the aggravation) and to Asmala for keeping it going. And Lastly, but not leastly, thanks to DavidG for helping make it easier to run.

Thanks to Geo (et al) for running the site that makes this game 10 times better to play.

BTW, I search for the KOTH thread for new post before I look anywhere else.

In closing, thanks to Mathias for making this a relevant thread for anyone who plays in an international gaming environment!

PS: (ok, OK, so I am STILL running my mouth...errrr, fingers , though I hate to suggest something that may smack of "elitisim", it might be nice to have a "Category" of some sort to be able to recommend players to be a member of that gives them the honor of being able to say, "People think I'm a good game sport." Might make people strive to be a member and practice good friendly gaming habits.

[ June 16, 2003, 17:54: Message edited by: Slynky ]

[Erax]

I will repeat my own comments from another thread :

Have you noticed how no one ever asks about the 'cheat codes' in SEIV ? Have you noticed how the opposite of that (how to make the AI smarter; how to make the game harder) generates so much traffic here ?

I think SE IV appeals to gamers with a certain level of maturity. Those who have gone beyond 'instant gratification' and realize that the best rewards come from beating the greatest challenges.

In my opinion this forum is the best place on the Internet. Let's all work to keep it that way.

That about sums up my POV.

[Slick]

A typical post-game wrap-up...

A: “I wanted to thank you for so expertly kicking my butt in that Last game, but you seemed to have missed a spot on my left buttock. Would you mind taking care of it, if it isn’t too much trouble?”

B: *in British accent* “Sewww sorrray...” *whump, whump, WHUMP!* “Is that better, my good man?”

A: “Smashing!” *admires his new bruises* “A fine job indeed.”

Slick.

[Mathias_Ice]

Certainly didn't mean to slight you there Slykny, I basically just cut and pasted from my first post. I totally agree with all your comments regarding sportsmanship and also Erax's POV regarding the maturity level of most players. One of the things that most impressed me about this community was the responses to this thread. There are 8 pages of responses here! All insightful, helpful, and above all so very compassionate. This kind of response to a friend in need is the kind of thing that truly sets this community above all other gaming forums I have ever seen. Sportsmanship may be the German chocolate cake that is so desirable, but the humanity of this community is the coconut frosting that makes the whole thing absolutely delicious. Everyone deserves a hearty pat on the back and an "at a boy!"

Mathias Ice

[Geckomlis]

Originally posted by Slynky:
Us boardgamers, it seems to me, have always been very competitive. In some "face-to-face" games, I've even had opponents get upset and quit (and even throw counters from the board).

Ditto. I also have had people cheat right in front of me - like, really, I was not going to notice? I am smart enough to kick your *** in a game with a 100-page rulebook, but not to notice your are cheating? In either case, I never willingly played with them again.

On the other hand, I used to go to a local wargaming group's meetings once a month, 9AM-10PM on a Saturday. 50 men playing dozens of different wargames in a hotel ballroom. No incidences of the behavior mentioned above. Lots of: “ I think you will probably lose the game if you make that move. Here is how the game works. Okay, now take your Last turn over and see how it goes.” It is called mentoring, which is a relationship based on trust and mutual interest. And it is absolutely essential to fostering a community

Gecko

[ June 16, 2003, 19:23: Message edited by: geckomlis ]

[Taera]

ive mentioned all of that in diffeent places and topics. i dont have loud words to say except that it is the only community ive been in for so long. never seen a more mature community.

[Slynky]

Originally posted by geckomlis:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Slynky:
Us boardgamers, it seems to me, have always been very competitive. In some "face-to-face" games, I've even had opponents get upset and quit (and even throw counters from the board).

Ditto. I also have had people cheat right in front of me - like, really, I was not going to notice? I am smart enough to kick your *** in a game with a 100-page rulebook, but not to notice your are cheating? In either case, I never willingly played with them again.

On the other hand, I used to go to a local wargaming group's meetings once a month, 9AM-10PM on a Saturday. 50 men playing dozens of different wargames in a hotel ballroom. No incidences of the behavior mentioned above. Lots of: “ I think you will probably lose the game if you make that move. Here is how the game works. Okay, now take your Last turn over and see how it goes.” It is called mentoring, which is a relationship based on trust and mutual interest. And it is absolutely essential to fostering a community

Gecko

---

Well, that IS a breath of fresh air. As my experience has been, most people take advantage of rule-inexperience.

Your example reminds me of Origins, though. Imagine pick-up-gaming all night long. On tables in gaming rooms, hotel rooms, in the cafeteria or "eating establishment", and in the hallways leading to rooms. You can meet some really die-hard gamers at a convention like that!

[PvK]

I've noticed that with a few other game communitites, too. The more thought, strategy, intelligence and sophistication involved in a game, the more civil and interesting the players tend to be.

The dorks tend to be the players who are there because they think the game is the latest cool thing. Fortunately, they tend to wander to the latest fad after a while, which is another reason to stick with the best games rather than the latest flashiest games.

PvK

[DavidG]

Originally posted by Taera:
never seen a more mature community.

I agree although sometimes it seems so mature it makes me feel like a 2 year old. I seen things posted (only a few times ) that if directed towards me would make me totally blow my lid but they are always handled very properly.