SE4 Stock Balance Mod

[Rollo]

Originally posted by Imperator Fyron:
Bah. There is way too much whining going on about old files becoming obselete as a result of a new patch. Sometimes that is inevitable and necessary, unless you want zero progress to be made with the patches, of course.

meh, I was only trying to be helpful and point out things that could be problematic.
If such advice is not welcome, fine. I won't bother with it anymore.
Have fun with your mod.

Rollo

[Sir Whiskers]

We still have a number of outstanding issues, so I thought I'd try to summarize a few to see if we can reach a consensus, then move on to the next batch of issues.

PDC. The majority seem to think these are too powerful vis-a-vis missiles. Suggestions include:
1. Reduce or eliminate current bonus to hit.
2. Reduce range.
3. Change reload rate to 2.

PPB. What many see as a niche weapon is instead the primary DF weapon of the early and mid game.
1. Smooth out damage progression (I believe this has been agreed to).
2. Reduce range.
3. Impose a penalty to hit. 10%?
4. Increase supplies used. Double?
5. Improve armor.
6. Make phased shields easier to reach on the research tree.

Armor. No real consensus that there is a problem here, but some feel armor should be more equal to shields in protection per kt. Also, there are concerns that the AI is not using armor effectively.
1. Remove Chemistry I as a requirement to research Armor.
2. Add several levels to armor research, with improved components at the higher levels.
3. Improve armor protection somewhat for the current armor types.
4. Reduce the weight of the current armor components.
5. Add redundant requirements to armor to help the AI use it properly.
6. Add Skip All Shields to other weapons, which indirectly boosts armor relative to shields.

*************

My personal preferences - until someone convinces me otherwise...

PDC - Leave as is, but change reload rate to 2.
PPB - Reduce max range to 5 (same as DUC), make phased shields easier to reach, improve armor slightly.
Armor - My first choice would be adding more tech levels (as in DevNull) but I think that will cause AI problems. If so I'd settle for boosting the amount of protection for each type of armor by 10-15%. This still leaves shields noticeably better for overall protection, but there are more shield-skipping weapons to balance that. Either way, I'd still like to eliminate Chemistry as a prereq, making it much easier to research armor early.

All IMHO, of course.

[ August 03, 2003, 17:50: Message edited by: Sir Whiskers ]

[Taera]

rollo, im sorry if thats how it seems, didnt mean to i just remember all the worries from the patch times, i think its a little unneccessary. Your advice is always welcome.

[geoschmo]

Originally posted by Rollo:
meh, I was only trying to be helpful and point out things that could be problematic.
If such advice is not welcome, fine. I won't bother with it anymore.
Have fun with your mod.

Rollo

Rollo, as we have tried to point out to Fyron on many occasions this thread is NOT a mod in the normal sense of a mod. It is an attempt to gather suggestions to submit to Malfador that have a chance of being accepted in the stock game. Your comment was more in line with the objectives of the thread. Even if we ultimatly proceed with a change despite your point does not mean that the point should not be considered. Please do not leave the thread as your comments have been constructive and to the point, something that unfortunatly cannot be said for everyone here.

Geoschmo

[Grandpa Kim]

Whew! With PBW down, I thought I'd read all 23 pages. I repeat, Whew!

But I do believe I have a gestalt for the whole thing now.

Most obvious, by the fine hair splitting that's been done, is that SEIV is pretty well balanced already. All it it needs is some fine tuning. There are some components/facilities that are hardly being used at all. These should be tweaked some so they will be used. Others are overused. These should be pared down ever so slightly, not too much.

For that reason, SJ, I suggest you keep your changes minimal-- if it ain't broke don't fix it-- but some things are broken or at least bent. Work on those ever so carefully. Leave the rest alone. There's a ton of good ideas for changes here, but a ton of things that have little or nothing to do with balance. The supply ideas really have nothing to do with game balance, only esthetic balance.

I say work on the things we are aren't using to make them stronger and ever so slightly tone down the ones we are overusing. That way almost everything you do will be an improvement (with almost nothing made worse) to an already well balanced game.

About the only item I haven't seen mentioned is an improvement to the organic race's medical lab. Change the pop happiness factor to +1 at level 1, +2 at level 2 and +3 at level 3. Currently it is +1 at all levels.

Kim

[ August 04, 2003, 04:24: Message edited by: Grandpa Kim ]

[Gozra]

For that reason, SJ, I suggest you keep your changes minimal-- if it ain't broke don't fix it-- but some things are broken or at least bent. Work on those ever so carefully. Leave the rest alone. There's a ton of good ideas for changes here, but a ton of things that have little or nothing to do with balance. The supply ideas really have nothing to do with game balance, only esthetic balance.
Grand Pa Kim Quote I add my voice.

PDC. The majority seem to think these are too powerful vis-a-vis missiles. Suggestions include:
1. Reduce or eliminate current bonus to hit.
2. Reduce range.
3. Change reload rate to 2.
Sir Whiskers quote
Number 3 is interesting
What effect will it have?
My guess is it only helps in mass missle attackes( the missles get help)

I still thik the talisman should be made more expensive and/or Bigger

A few extra levels of armor would be a good tweak

more direct fire weapons that skip shields. Why?

[LGM]

There have been lots of players advocating reducing the to hit bonus of Point Defense Cannons. The danger of this, is you will make Fighters more powerful in the early game and nearly impossible to hit in some circumstances. Defense of a Small Fighters: 80% Base + 20% Racial Def + 10% Beserker + 10% Small ECM 1, + 20% Fleet Experience Bonus (applies if in fleet or launched from a ship in the fleet) + some range modifers. Of course reducing Training as someone suggested would help a bit.

I think the PDC bonus was made high to prevent fighters from being untouchable. With only Sensor 1, it is hard to hit fighters with standard weapons. Point Defenses are the only way to stop the buggers.

If you want to make Missles avoid point defenses better, give them 80% defense instead of 50% (or whereever they are now). I think you have to change missle defense in SETTINGS.TXT and it applies to all missles. I don't think you can specify missle defense in the COMPONENTS.TXT file.

I think one of the problems with fighters later in the game, is that you have to be able to build Larger Fighters in order to get Small ECM III on a Small Fighter. The ECM and Sensors for Fighters should not be tied to Fighter Hull technology.

Another problem with Fighters is their ECM and Sensors do not improve the same levels as the Ship counterparts do. A Ship with 20% Fleet/Ship Training and Sensor III will hit a max defense Fighter much more easily. Maybe Fighter ECM/Sensors should match ships, then you can leave Point Defense multipliers where they are and give Missles extra defense. If you do this, you probably want to reduce the Fighter Tohit bonus since their Sensors will be better. Make their Tohit bonus = 20 or 30% so that they can hit Trained ships.

Maybe Fighter EC

[LGM]

You have to make Small DUC III less powerful and also tie it to Small Weapons tech. Unless I have racial tech, I always use Small Duc III. Maybe late in the game I would consider the Small Ripper but fighters are like butter by that point. I would suggest 5, 7, and 10 as the damage Ratings for Small Duc I-III. Or make it 5KT instead of 3 KT. That would make small Meson an attractive weapon because of its small size.

Make Small Weapons Tech 20K instead of 5K.

-------------------

I made Advance Mil Sci 50K research base in a Mod of mine. That had a nice affect on the game. I am actually building Ship Training 1 because level 3 is a long ways away. That change also makes Hyperoptics harder to get, making other anti-cloak means a consideration (really helps give an advantage to Temporal and Psychic races in getting anti-cloak ability earlier than others).

[ August 04, 2003, 18:12: Message edited by: LGM ]

[oleg]

Do fighters receive racial/cultural bonuses ?
AFAIK, no. Not sure about fleet experience either.

[LGM]

Originally posted by oleg:
Do fighters receive racial/cultural bonuses ?
AFAIK, no. Not sure about fleet experience either.

It was a while ago, maybe it was changed on a patch at some point, but I ran a series of test in a two player game with one system and did fighter/ship battles hot seat to see what the tohit chances were like. Fleet training was factored in as well as cultural and racial bonuses.

I was very surprised that Racial Ship Attacj and Defense bonsuses were factored in there because prior to my test, I thought the Racial Ship Combat sonsus were for ships, not units. They apply to ships and units equally.