Help with balancing facility costs (Proportions remix)

[dogscoff]

I think it's about time I stopped bugging PvK and actually got off my arse and tried to make my own, tweaked-to-my-preferences remix of proportions mod.

The first thing I've decided to add are religious communities- kind of a cross between the existing community/ city facilities and the shrines. I think I've come up with some fairly good values, but I'm not sure about the costs. Are these going to be too easy to build? Are they too expensive? It's balancing the upgrade options I'm really worried about. Hey PvK, why didn't you ever say this was so difficult?

Anyway, here we go. Most of the notation should be obvious, but note that "sys rsrch*" refers to the system-wide research boost ability.

I'll start with the
Fate shrine chain.
Fate Shrine:= A shrine where devout worshippers can contemplate the future.
Fate Commune:= A small enclave of thoughtful seers who predict the future and can avert disasters.
Religious Community (Fate):= A monastic community of thoughtful seers who predict the future and can avert disasters. Includes a limited number of secondary communities which have grown up to support the shrine.
Large Religious Community (Fate):= A large community based around worshippers of the fate shrine. Includes all the peripheral infrastructure, industrial and agricultural support services of a small city.

code:

---

Tech level	1	2	3	4

min prod	0	9	25	70

org prod	0 	9	25	70

rad prod	0	9	25	70

min strg	0	90	250	600

org strg	0	90	250	600

rad strg	0	90	250	600

intel prod	4	20	50	130

rsrch prod	5	45	95	175

cargo strg	0	100	250	500

bad event	-6	-11	-22	-3		

sys rsrch*	1	2	2	3

sys intel*	1	2	4



Cost Minerals	4000	8000	14000	23000

Cost Organics	4000	8000	14000	23000

Cost Rads	8000	12000	14500	24000

---

Nature Shrine chain (no descriptions yet)

code:

---

min prod	0	9	25	70

org prod	100	125	150	275

rad prod	0	9	25	70

min storg	0	90	250	600

org storg	500	800	1300	2000

rad storg	0	90	250	600

intel prod	0	0	3	5

rsrch prod	0	0	10	20

cargo strg	0	75	200	450

inc value	0	1	2	3

inc cond	0	1	2	3	

sys org*	0	0	0	1

			

Cost Minerals	3000	8000	14000	23000

Cost Organics	6000	12000	15000	24500

Cost Rads	3000	8000	14000	23000

---

Note that the nature chain does not get any of its special abilities (ie value and condition improvement) at the lowest level. However, it is substantially more useful at the higher levels.

Time shrine chain (no descriptions yet)

code:

---

min prod	0	9	25	70

org prod	0	9	25	70

rad prod	45	80	130	250

min storg	0	90	250	600

org storg	0	90	250	600

rad storg	400	800	1300	2000

intel prod	0	0	3	5

rsrch prod	0	0	10	20

cargo strg	0	100	250	500

sys min*	2	5	10	15

sys org *	2	5	10	15

sys rad*	2	5	10	15



Cost Minerals	8000	12000	15000	24500

Cost Organics	8000	12000	15000	24500

Cost Rads	8000	12000	15000	24500

---

Death shrine chain (no descriptions yet)

code:

---

min prod	35	75	120	240

org prod	0	9	25	70

rad prod	0	9	25	70

min storg	400	800	1300	2000

org storg	0	90	250	600

rad storg	0	90	250	600

intel prod	0	0	3	5

rsrch prod	0	0	10	20

cargo strg	0	100	250	500

sys dmg*	1	5	10	15

sys comb*	0	1	2	3



Cost Minerals	8500	14000	20000	25000

Cost Organics	8000	13000	19000	25000

Cost Rads	8000	13000	19000	25000

---

You'll see that I've done away with the War shrine- I'm planning to replace it with a "system tactical sensor grid" facility (or something like that) available to all (not just religious players) To compensate, religious players get a limited war shrine effect wrapped into the death shrine, and I'll throw in a "convert crew" intel op as well.

A final question. Do you think these should be instead of or as well as the existing shrine facilities? Just as agrarian communities didn't replace organic farms, should I retain some "no frills" shrines?

Other things I plan to include: (And I'll probably be asking for your help with these, too)
Contortions Mod planned feature list

-Include Quarian Rex's excellent Primitive Proportions extension.
X-removed arcologies from primitive tech trees (shouldn't be upgraded to)
--A mix of 'normal' neutrals (neutrals 1-6) and specially-designed primitive races. (Neutrals 7+)
--"warrior" infantry sizes for savage primitives.
--use neostandard mining station image for primitive stations.
--dedicated images for certain primitive facilities, troops and components. (submit to image mod?)

-Extend certain tech trees to keep things fresh beyond turn 300. Techs added to the end of these trees will usually be disproportionately expensive to research and build, but will yield very little extra benefit (diminishing returns) thus maintaining game balance.
--Huge troop.
--spaceyard IV, V, VI and temporal spaceyard IV, V, VI.
--Extra starliner modules (Same size as current best SM, but a few extra kt of space)
--suggestions for more, please.

-New facilities
--dedicated repair facilities.
X-religious communities to replace shrines.
--System tactical sensor grid (like war shrine for non-religious)
--Chain of facilities to represent research communities. (universities, colleges etc)
--Ship/ Fleet training facilities replaced by "academy" communities.
--suggestions for more, please.

-"Hive" Racial Trait:
--higher output/ cheaper CCs, cities, communities.
--smaller crew quarters.

-crossovers techs (?)
--Hive + religious= hive religious communities (?)

-Make ring/ sphereworlds more expensive (and bigger?) with more tech requirements.

-make use of extra planet images from image mod.

-applied psychlogy (urban planning) required for high-level city facilities. (?)

-tweak pop thresholds so homeworlds can export a few million ppl without losing production/ construction bonuses.

[ July 29, 2003, 10:55: Message edited by: dogscoff ]

[oleg]

Use "church", "monastery", "catheedral", etc. for names instead of "fate community" ?

[Suicide Junkie]

values of 1,2 and 3 for conditions improvement is very poor. It will take decades before you see a change from unpleasant to mild, etc.

[dogscoff]

values of 1,2 and 3 for conditions improvement is very poor. It will take decades before you see a change from unpleasant to mild, etc.

Those are the values I found in Proportions' data files for the nature shrine. I might tweak them though, there was talk on another thread about rebalancing them.

Use "church", "monastery", "catheedral", etc. for names instead of "fate community" ?

Well, I wasn't really thinking on that scale.To give an idea of the kind of scale I had in mind:

Shrine - a small temple with maybe a few priests/ whatever tending it. No real resource output or anything, but the religious effects are felt.

Commune - A monastery or convent, where dozens (hundreds?) of monks live together and devote themselves to worship. They may be at the centre of a town or village that has grown up to cater for pilgrims etc. Like religious orders here, they may do a little small scale farming and other handicrafts, hence the resource output. According to my facility values they appear to do some uranium minig as well.
The output of such a community might seem out of proportion when you look at the figures, but they would probably have an affect on the other communities around them.

Religious Community - Think Vatican. It is way beyond a simple church or cathedral, it is an entire city built around a religious faith. I mean technically the Vatican is country all of its own ( this makes interesting reading ) so in Proportions' terms I could even justify a religious cultural centre. However I think that's a little excessive, so a minor city will do me just fine.

Large religious community. As above, but bigger.

however I've taken your point on board and here are the names for the Death shrine facilities:
Death Shrine
Temple of Doom
Religious Community (Death)
Necropolis

More suggestions are welcome.

But anyway, what about the facility costs?

[Loser]

Time Shrine
Temple of the Eon
Chantry of Eternity
City on the Edge of Time

[ July 29, 2003, 17:11: Message edited by: Loser ]

[oleg]

cost should correspond to the cost of default shrine+town or city, i think. May be 10-20% more

[Loser]

Nature Shrine
Sacred Glen
City of Natural Balance
Virility of Worlds

[dogscoff]

Loser: Nice, very poetic. Thanks.

Oleg: Good point. The question is, should that be for the first in the facility retrofit series or the Last? If it's the first, then that is one horrendously expensive. If it's the Last, then there's a danger that it would be too easy to build at level 1 then upgrade to the highest without paying anywhere the actual price.

I guess playtesting is what I really need.

BTW, are time shrines supposed ot stack wth robotoid factories? How is that determined in the data files?

[oleg]

Originally posted by dogscoff:
..BTW, are time shrines supposed ot stack wth robotoid factories? How is that determined in the data files?

They don't stack. SE does not care about facility name or description - it operate on the level of abilities. Time shrine and Robotoid factory uses the same ability for production boost - hence only the highest is used.

[ July 30, 2003, 10:59: Message edited by: oleg ]

[Loser]

You are quite welcome, DS. If you have any other naming needs I'd be happy to give it a shot. Perhaps when I get my own mod to the point where it could use help I can bother you for some small bits of advice?

In the mean time, check out the names that Fyron and I came up with for his mod.

I like Fyron's Fate Shrines just fine, but here are a few more suggestions.

Shrine to Probability
Shrine to Speculation
Temple of Fortune
Citadel of Karmic Balance
City of Acceptance and Anticipation
Wheel of Dharma

A couple of those are a little culture-specific, but they fit the Fate Shrine concept so well I had to include them.

[ July 30, 2003, 12:41: Message edited by: Loser ]