Status of systems not presently seen

[Karibu]

I see the problem now. However, it could be an option to choose when game starts. Like random events.

[Asmala]

Originally posted by Imperator Fyron:

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Originally posted by Asmala:

quote:

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Originally posted by Imperator Fyron:
The reason this was not done is because it would increase the size of some parts of savegame files (some large parts) by 20 fold...

It cannot increase savegame files significantly. Required information is only a few bytes per object. Imagine how many objects you can squeeze, say, to 20 kb?

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Yes it can... it would have to store the same data that is present for each system in the galaxy, but for every single turn. Or, it would just store the latest Version of what each empire has seen for each system, which would require up to 20 times as much space for all of that information. It takes more than a few bytes to store all of the information for a system, especially when those systems start getting lots of ships and units and such in them.

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It depends what you consider a few bytes. In a big game a few bytes per player is 10-20 kb, I think. And it's quite a lot of information you can put to that.

Perhaps some numbers would help you. Each planet requires 7 bytes and each ship/unit 2 bytes (ship's name not included, it would require too much space). 1000 planets and 5000 ships are quite a lot, isn't it. And it's only 17 kb per player.

[Fyron]

And just were did you get those numbers? A hat, I presume. You have no idea how MM implemented those objects (and neither do I) Ship names must certainly be included, as they can be seen. And all of the data you can see for ships, including damage they have if appropriate. It is a bit more than you would imagine...

17 KB per player... you also have to factor in the fact that every empire has to have data stored for whether all those ships/planets can be seen. And then you have to store 21 different Versions of what is in every single system (and then more if neutral races get created mid-game through intel or events). 1 for the actual data, and one for the Last thing every race saw for that system. It gets much larger than just that 17 KB. Sure, you can have optimizations and have an empty byte storing a bool for unexplored systems. But as soon as they become explored, you have to start adding data whenever stuff is seen.

[ December 01, 2003, 22:14: Message edited by: Imperator Fyron ]

[Kamog]

17 kilobytes per player doesn't sound so bad. I wouldn't mind having save game files bigger by 17 x (# of players) kB to get this feature.

[Fyron]

17 KB is likely a very small estimate, much smaller than the data necessary would take up...

[minipol]

I would also like that feature. Like it's implemented now, scouts are not very usefull for
reconnaisance if you don't take notes.
And like Karibu said, you can make it an option at the start of a game to include this or not. That way, everybody gets what he wants. This is one of those things that i would really like in SE5.

[Karibu]

Furthermore, I think it is not difficult to make the code check if there is this "old sysem view" information on the computer when you open new turn. If it not found, it is simply not included (and your galaxy view is like it is today). This way you can play when you are travelling and not beside your own computer (so when playing your turn any other that your own computer, you just will not get the "old system" information). Granted, this puts travelling players little different position than those who do not travel, but it is still manageable to play. At the end, Travellers do not get any LESS information than today, others just get little more.

[Asmala]

Originally posted by Imperator Fyron:
And just were did you get those numbers? A hat, I presume. You have no idea how MM implemented those objects (and neither do I) Ship names must certainly be included, as they can be seen. And all of the data you can see for ships, including damage they have if appropriate. It is a bit more than you would imagine...

Not exactly from a hat. I thought what information I see about enemy planets and ships and calculated how much space I need to store that information. Ship names would need a lot of space, at least in some circumstances. 2000 ships with 20 characters names would take 40 kb or less depending what letters are allowed to ship names (how many bits you need per character). I think it's not necessarily to have ship names, class names are enough. And why the damage ships had should be saved? You never see it if you don't have a ships/units with long range scanner in the system.

17 KB per player... you also have to factor in the fact that every empire has to have data stored for whether all those ships/planets can be seen. And then you have to store 21 different Versions of what is in every single system (and then more if neutral races get created mid-game through intel or events). 1 for the actual data, and one for the Last thing every race saw for that system. It gets much larger than just that 17 KB. Sure, you can have optimizations and have an empty byte storing a bool for unexplored systems. But as soon as they become explored, you have to start adding data whenever stuff is seen.

Information you need for a planet:
resource values 3 bytes
population 2 bytes
coordinates 1 byte
owner 1 byte
total 7 bytes

Information you need for a ship (name not included):
class 1 byte (I assume classes are stored somewhere so you need only the ID of the class)
coordinates 1 byte
total 2 bytes

For units the class are replaced by number of the units and the type of the unit (fighter, satellite...)

Then it's saved for every empire every system they have visited but not see at the moment. To go over 5000 ships and 1000 planets you have to see a very large area. And if you see more than 5000 ships and 1000 planets the savegame file are probably some megabytes, so it's not a big deal if it goes over 17 kb / player.

[DavidG]

Fyron I don't understand why you keep dumping on this idea. It is an excellent idea. Let MM decide if and how it's to be impelmented. It clearly is possible without affecting the transfered file sizes.

[Parasite]

Please don't forget the ability to modify that data. You infect a planet with plauge and know it is losing population. You see a fleet of 100 ships then 100 ships appear at the warp point and (hopefully) get destroyed. I would want to remove that old fleet from the information.