Ship weapon loadout

[primitive]

Originally posted by Imperator Fyron:
Just play a PBW game and you will see how fighters are nearly useless...

Another blanket statement Fyron

It’s time you get yourself back in the KOTH league, so we can teach you some creative use of fighters. There is nothing more fun than alternating fighter-heavy fleets with DF-fleets. There is also the added fun of watching your enemy guess if he should use the “Don’t fire at fighters” option and his targeting sequence. Whatever he chooses there is that special fighter design/fleet setup that will make his fleet look like Bambi on ice unless he has PDC to spare (Which is of course when you attack with DF-ships only )

Those 100 K researchpoints and some minerals invested in fighters early is probably one of the best investments available in any cut-throat game.

[Fyron]

Not the way You do Fyron, You are the Champ.

Yeah, whatever.

I have faced numerous opponents making good use of fighters, and have never lost more than token battles against them.

If you look back at my post, you will see that I directly refered to them being useful in the very early game, which is most of what you described. In the rest of the vast majority of game situations, they are not useful except as distractions.

125k minerals is a turn or two of production, though hardly a relevant figure because it gets paid over a long period of time. The amount of resources invested to get the fighters and carriers strong enough to actually require extra PDC easily match or outweigh that figure. Their effects on economics are trivial at best, except in the very early game, which rarely has wars that will lead to your victory overall, except in the small percent of MP games that are just 1 v 1 affairs.

Late game fighters are most certainly not virtually immune to PDC fire. Late game fleets have huge numbers of ships, and PDC Vs have good range, allowing for a lot of ships to stack their firing ranges over single squares, resulting in lots and lots of PDC shooting down fighters (not as fast as low tech fighters, but still fast enough) before the fighters ever get a chance to fire.

Again, I will state that fighters are nearly useless. You may think that phrase equates to a lower degree of usefulness than I do, but that is not my fault.

[primitive]

Originally posted by Imperator Fyron:

Again, I will state that fighters are nearly useless. You may think that phrase equates to a lower degree of usefulness than I do, but that is not my fault.

When advising others, wouldn’t it be wise to use the words as they was intended and not make up your own definitions

nearly Pronunciation Key (nîr l )
adv.
1. Almost but not quite: The coat nearly fits.
2. In a close manner; intimately: a matter nearly affecting our interests.

Here is a blanket statement from me (which I’ll be happy to prove BTW).
In smaller games (KOTH type), intelligent use of fighters is a game winner more often than not.

And here is another one (also easily provable).
Fighters are a very useful tool in late game if used correctly.

It takes skill and a well thought out strategy (and a lot of micromanagement) to get full use of late game fighters. That few people use them in late game does not mean they are useless. I have personally used them with great success and had them used against me with equally great success (for the other guy).

Fighters are a great tool. In fact fighters are one of the things making SEIV a great strategy game, promoting skill and imagination instead of just brute power.

[geoschmo]

Originally posted by primitive:
BTW: Missile ships can do most of the same thing fighters can, but at a greater cost.

Sorry Primitive. I disagree with you on fighters, but the discussion is at least interesting. Missles I cannot agree with this at all. Missles are not nearly useless past the middle of the game, they are completely so. In the space of 1 CSM you can put 2 and a half PDC, more then enough to counter the missle considering they fire three times as often. And you can't get tricksy with missles and put ECM or shields to make them tougher like you can with the fighters. And the missles are three to five times as expensive per Kt then the PDC. So on either a tactical or an econmic basis you can quite easily see that missles are non-competative once PDC become widely available. It's not a matter of just spending more for more missles, because your opponent can counter the more missles for less cost. The numbers get worse for you the more missles you use. They only work against a totally unprepared enemy. Unless you are talking about a mod or something.

[ January 23, 2004, 14:24: Message edited by: geoschmo ]

[primitive]

Looks like I have a bit trouble with explaining myself here (surprise, surprise).

I am not a fan of missiles because I like fighters better. Missile ships are indeed both expensive and useless in large battles, but early in the game they will win one-on-one battles with DUC ships. So the thing they can do for you are early claiming of systems and forcing the other guy to use larger fleets (running convoys). If not most of what fighters can do, at least its some

Winning in SEIV is all about economics. While (early) fighters (and even more so, missiles) are weak against a well prepared fleet, the fact that you have them is the key to victory. Get your enemy paranoid and make him waste more resources than you do and you are already halfway there.

The secret to fighters is like that old song “the Gambler” (hope Gryphin or the Tabby don’t see this post or I will never hear the end of it )

You've got to know
When to hold 'em,
Know when to fold 'em
Know when to walk away,
Know when to run.

BTW:
I dished WPs and Sats earlier. Will nobody step up an defend their honor ?

[Growltigger]

Primitive, the "Tabby" has seen your post and yes, it will not be the end of it.

I am more ginger and black, rather than tabby anyhow

I have never played a game against humans, so dont have the depth of knowledge that the rest of you do.

In the early game, I think fighters are devastating if they catch you unawares. But the AI rarely manages that. I am sure a cunning human would be able to do it, but it seems a hell of a waste of resources to build a DF fleet and a fighter fleet to spring a trap on your foe.

Satellites are useful in the early game, and I think useful in the later games, if you have enough of them. The problem comes with their placement as often, they are on the wrong side of the planet from where your enemy is. Large satellites for remote mining are always useful!

I like weapons platforms, I always have some on my planets, with a mix of PDC and Phased Polaron Beams on large mounts. PDC stop errant missiles or fighters from nuking your planet, the PPBs with their enhanced range make incoming ships pay.

In any event, whatever the level of the game, you need to use everything for a tiered defence. A mobile fleet to hit the enemy in space, mines in orbit so the enemy has to use sweepers to get through, sats and WPs and make the bugger pay if nothing else

[ January 23, 2004, 16:11: Message edited by: Growltigger ]

[Fyron]

You're whole point of making the enemy paranoid is irrelevant. You do not need to go crazy with PDC to counter both missiles and fighters, 2-3 per ship plus a few ships loaded with PDC to fighter-hunt, will do quite nicely, and has a minimal effect on your economy. Even adding an extra PDC to have 4 on larger ships has little to no real effect on your economy or fighting power. Now, if you do something silly like have 8 PDC on all of your ships, that will ruin you, but not because of the fighters having been successful, but because you made some really poor decisions. Fighters and missiles take a lot more resources than a few extra PDC do, and the extra PDC are more effective per unit of resource at countering fighters or missiles (or both) than the fighters + carriers or missiles are at overcoming the PDC.

[ January 23, 2004, 16:18: Message edited by: Imperator Fyron ]

[geoschmo]

The only thing I would say in defense of WP's and sats is that they are no less effective then missles or fighters.

[Fyron]

I made use of WPs on my HW to thwart one person's attempted invasion with a fighter fleet once. All of their fighters were slaughtered, with no small loss of WPs, and my fleet of warships arriving next turn took out their carriers that had a few weapons on them, which would eventually have whittled away my planet (eventually).

[Wardad]

It is far better to have a couple of weapon platforms, then it is to give a scout or cloaked raider free rein.

I gave an AI hell by using a cloaked raider with plague bombs. Only the larger planets had WPs. The fighters finally finished off my raiders, after I killed a dozen planets.

WPs are not effective against large fleets. They just seem die to quickly and may not get a chance to shoot back.