And The AI is ???

[Richard Link]

What`s the take on the AI in this Game so far ?

It sure seems strange that no one is talking about that at all since it's the core of the game, and it is a Combat sim after all....and Yes, I know that 100 turns is just starting.

I find the AI in SE 3 to be excellent if a little "lets all gang up from the getgo and kill the Human player" type stuff. As an example, let the " AI Ministers " run everything for you and you will still lose to the other 2-4 races played by the AI.

Maybe some SE IV Beta Testers will weigh in here.

[Psitticine]

Well, I've not been talking about it because it keeps beating me in an embarassing fashion and I rather thought I'd keep that to myself.

IOW, I've found it excellent. I'm not a beta-tester, BTW, just a 100-turner, but I've seen it doing an excellent job with things like following up one line of research to a useful degree instead of spreading the RPs around too thinly to make a difference.

It does seem to have a tendancy to launch attacks identical to ones which have already failed. Many times, I'll find an identical class ship making another try against, say, a space station which just ate the attacker's sister ship for lunch Last turn.

Of course, it will eventually pull out all the stops and send in a force large enough to crush that station into titanium dust, and I suppose all those puny attacks dotted about could be intended to keep me from knowing where the big one is landing . . .

But, nah, I think it just doesn't correct failed attack strategies quickly enough!

Other than that, I've been finding it a nicely difficult opponent.

[Master Belisarius]

Your you have a point here Richard.
I have only played the demonstration, and I am conscious that SE4 are still in development, and that MM will continue improving the game, but regrettably, the AI in the Se4 Demo 0.56 is MUCH worse than the AI in SE3.
As I said before I am conscious that SE4 are still in development and that SE3 is a completed game with one of the betters AI that I know... but, for this same reason, although in this and other forums I can see tons of good suggestions (most of them to make more complex the game), I would prefer that MM put its efforts to create an AI like they already did for SE3.

[This message has been edited by Master Belisarius (edited 20 September 2000).]

[General Hawkwing]

I agree with Master Belisarius, the AI is much weaker than SE3. in SE4, I'll lose a few minor battles in early game but by turn 40-60 will have pretty much sealed up the victory. In SE3 the game was still contested (and sometimes lost) at turns over 100.

[wingte]

Hmnnnn,, I never lost a game at the "normal" setting in SE III and so far I haven't found the "normal" setting in SE IV to be either easier or harder. I always run out of turns before there is a clear indication of wheather I am going to win or lose.
My biggest problem is that when I pick "generate random computer empires" even on the "low" setting for the number of other empires,, there is always a minimum of 4 and often as many as 8 enemies and half of them will be the type that attack on sight.
It is also very frustrating to have to always fight everytime another ship enters the same square I am in. This results in making enemies of those races that would otherwise be inclined to become alies.

------------------
Wingte

[Master Belisarius]

No offense Wingte, but I must disagree with you: if you play a Se3 game with not warp point manipulation, and not star manipulation techs, you will have a challenging game.
Also, if you start with less starting techs points, all the AIs against you and large galaxy, I think that really you will have a hard work...
I have played the SE4 demo giving all the advantages to the AI, and with all the AI against me... and always was an easy job.

[This message has been edited by Master Belisarius (edited 21 September 2000).]

[wingte]

The medium setting should be balanced so that is the position where I will play.
The real test would be to creat an AI where you could give yourself every advantage and still have a challeging game because the AI actually learns.
My experience in SE III was that the AI would adapt to the tactics I was using in the medium/normal mode. When I developed the stellar manipulation tech and started cleaning systems by destroying the suns,, the AI started mining the sun. When I started putting mine sweepers on the sun destroyers,, it put a fleet at the sun. So far as I could tell the AI never used any of the stellar manipulation tech even when they clearly should have had it since I had long since maxed out the tech. I also found that using the warp manipulation would upset even my allies and using the sun destroyer against even a genocidal opponent would likly cause my allies to break their treaty with me.

But none of this happened in less than 50-60 turns since that was just about the minimum time I could research the warp point tech and still research the other stuff that would give me the resources to maintain the fleet with expensive components.

So ,, I still maintain that 100 turns is not enough to be able to really get a feel for what and how the medium setting on the dificulty is actually going to react. This is especially true since the Demo doesn't have the stellar manipulation tech in it that caused the SE III AI to really show what it could and would do.

------------------
Wingte

[eagleton]

Sadly, it was not as hard to beat the AI of SE III even without stellar manipulation. My main strategy was to colonize as much as possible from the beginning, so I had more ressources, and to wait until they attacked me. Then I would attack their planets, minimizing ship-to-ship battles. I also developed much more intelligence then my opponents to destroy their economic basis. Most of the time, they could not resist that. Often, they had much better ships in the beginning, but I soon had more ressources, what counted in the end. The only opponents that really stood a chance were those who had half of the maintenance costs and so produced
much more ships than others.

[wingte]

Yes eagleton, your stratege is one that will almost always beat an AI opponent. The key is to determine what acts are "tolerated" by the AI even if they send you warnings and then staying just inside the envelope.

Looking at the script in SE VI it appears that there is a section in there that will make this signicantly more difficult to accomplish. There seems to be a "counter" that tracks how many times several seemingly unrelated minor events happen and when the count is reached, the AI treats that final minor event as if it were a major event. That final event may be the first time you did that particular action but the AI will react as if you had carried out an deliberately hostile act.

In a longer game, particularly since there seems to be no way to not fight when some other race, even an ally, enters a space you are in, it looks to me like this "anger counter" will almost guarentee that end of the game will be decided by force rather than diplomancy.

Befor any tweaking is done on the AI,, I want to have the opportunity to play some longer games. 100 turns with the demo technology limit isn't long enough and doesn't allow for suffeciently dramatic enough events to really get a feel for the AI.

Right now the only unacceptable single events seem to be:
Actively declaring war...
Being considered a "racial" enemy...
Attacking a planet...

Things in the "counter list" seem to include:
Blockading a warp point... (5-7 events)
Just entering a system claimed by another race... (10-20 events)
Any kind of servalance espinoge... (3-9 events depending on type)

2-3 total of each event seems to produce a declaration of war faster than larger numbers of any single event.

Colonizing a planet in a system claimed by another race,, even an ally race. and refusing to abandon it seems to result in war in 3-5 turns depending on how good your relations were to begin with.

Because just passing through someones territory trips the counter and you can't colonize a planet even in an allies system, I think that somewhere arround turn 150 you will always be at war with every other AI player you have contacted if you try to do the fast early grownth plan. Once the warp point tech is available it should become possible to creat bypass warps so the passing through counter stops. It also apears that in the early game you will have to tolarate other races creating colonies in your systems even though they won't tolerate you doing the same.

Hmnnnn Now,, I am wondering if there is something in the script that if you allow them to colonize in your systems,, they will allow you to colonize in theirs??? I have never tried this,,, HMNNNN...

------------------
Wingte

[General Hawkwing]

Wingte,
I don't know about the script(not having read it) but I have done many of the things you say leads to war and have not had war declared by some empires. I've even stole planets intl. ops. (7-8) without war starting. Other empires have declared war after a single, accdental ship battle. Maybe something has to do with whether it is a "enemy" or "neutral" AI empire?