What now???? - Page 2

jowe01 · #11 December 8th, 2000, 11:13 PM

Yes, this COULD be a great game with its breadth, customizability, sound diplomatic options... if it either had sufficient multiplayer ability (including tactical combat or at least a battleviewer, because battles are what everybody is working towards the whole game over) or at a decend AI. As it stands now, I have to second what has been said earlier: the game right now is just too boring to be recommended to anybody.

Talenn · #12 December 9th, 2000, 01:17 AM

Michou:

Yes, I agree that the AI must cheat a bit in order to be competitive. I have no problem with that. I just dont want to see it get to the point like Shogun:Total War where it was EXTREMELY obvious that you and the AI were even playing by the same rules! That game was so blatant that even reviewers were commenting on it and that is BAD.

I also agree that it should be the #1 priority for MM. Adding new features is nice and all, but ultimately, those features are meaningless if the game is no longer interesting to play. I have not reached that stage, but I can see it happening once I run out of ways to make the AI more challenging myself.

Talenn

Instar · #13 December 9th, 2000, 01:39 AM

Hey Courageous, I have to ask, how much computer programming have you done? I hope you have because AI's in general are pretty tough things to do!
I tend to agree, but that has not stopped me from playing. The AI is pretty challenging as it is, but it could be better. And MM will never let the AI cheat.

Commander G2 · #14 December 9th, 2000, 06:05 AM

Hey, why don't you guys quit your complaining and play eacher by email. Playing against a human is always more fun. People are less predictable and will counter any design you come up with for your ships. That is the beauty about a game like this.

Baron Munchausen · #15 December 9th, 2000, 06:22 AM

You can arrange to give the AI special bonuses easily enough. Edit the ai_general files in the directories to add more abilities to each of the options for each race. "Race Opt 1" is the "Low" points option (2000), "Race Opt 2" is the medium (3000), and "Race Opt 3" is the High (5000) option in game setup. Do a little math if you want to be proportional in giving the AIs their advantages or just add stuff that seems good to add according to the nature of the race. I gave the Phong an "environmental resistance" bonus because their description says they have it.

Not sure how much good it does them, though. Maybe I'll add some other things. once you've boosted the AI empires' abilities, play with a "normal" race yourself, choosing no special tech areas or other big advantages and you'll have to use some ingenuity to beat them. The AI is improving in the betas, btw. You'll find the next patch a few notches more difficult.

[This message has been edited by Baron Munchausen (edited 09 December 2000).]

Talenn · #16 December 9th, 2000, 06:52 AM

Baron:

Yep, I've done that. You have to be careful though not to exceed 5000 points worth of stuff. The AI is constrained by the costs as much as a player is even when the data is coming from the AI_General files.

Talenn

Dweeb · #17 December 9th, 2000, 03:57 PM

quote:
Originally posted by Michou:
OK, let's face it :

1 - The AI must cheat if it is to stand a chance.

I actually have no problem with a Cheating AI. That's how Sid Meier always did his. One of the problems, however, is that IIRC the AI will take over for a player who misses his turn is a multiplayer game. In this case, it is critical for the AI NOT to cheat. It might be necessary therefore to include TWO AIs, cheating and non-cheating. In fact, I think players who miss their multiplayer turns should be punished by having their empires run by a poor AI!

Talenn · #18 December 9th, 2000, 07:45 PM

Dweeb:

The 'cheating' can take many forms that dont necessarily alter the dynamics of the game. A simple production/research bonus (already included in the 'AI Bonus' setting) is an example. Another would be giving it access to info it wouldnt otherwise have in order for it to be able to properly determine if it is strong enough to attack a certain location.

Things like that wont be broken if the AI has to take over for a human player. I dont think you'd want to switch back and forth though.

Overall, I'm not a big fan of AI 'cheating' but in a game this complex, its apparent that it needs SOME sort of boost. Actually, thats not entirely true from the 'challenge' standpoint. It would STILL be challenging even as it is if the AI would simply display some aggression early in the game. The ability for a human player to expand is greatly increased when they dont have to worry about defense in the slightest.

I'm pretty sure that if the next Version of the AI comes out and it is far more aggressive (and makes more intelligent attacks...ie actually STACKS before it attacks in the early game), people will find the game far more challenging.

Talenn

Shadow99 · #19 December 10th, 2000, 02:45 AM

Actually I wish MM would let the mod authors help them more directly by incorporating our alterations instead of doing that part themselves. They should concentrate on AI & abilities (I'm still waiting for a resupply generators to work as they don't know & my nuclear reactors look silly using solar gen

). I personnally have made over 50 new components, added 4 new sciences, 5 new ship types, etc... That as soon as I'm done balancing & the few remaining issues are settled I'll be releasing (work & college have not yet let me finish these Last two things

).

But yes the AI needs work, I've still been suprised by the AI occasionally, but not often enough to call it a challenge & yes this should be the first priority for MM besides making sure all the abilities actually work for the mod authors...

Kentavr · #20 December 11th, 2000, 08:18 AM

An AI doesn't need to cheat to win.

An AI does, however, need to be able to take into account all the data that a human would to see and react. Currently, I don't think the AI on SE4 is even close to finished. Heck, the personality files aren't even finished... They said more things in SE3.

MOO had a better diplomacy model? What? 'You must be my friend, or I'll declare war!' 'Declare war on Joe or I'll declare war on you!' 'You have to many points, I declare war on you!'... I think those are all the modes in MOO2 I saw. That, and, 'I won't speak to you, we're at war!' so you couldn't even offer to surrender to them, let alone ask them to surrender. Sheesh.

C'mon, MOO2 crashed every fifty turns, the 'large' galaxy wouldn't even be half the size of a 'small quadrant' in SE4... I'd happily play SE3 over MOO2, let alone SE4, where I can tweak to my heart's desire.

Better model? Gaining dust? What kind of gamers are you? 5000 point racial advantages? Geez, no wonder the AI can't keep up with you war-mongers. Think in-character... If you're ready to nuke them before they've even met you, you can hardly blame them for losing. Sure they can't explore to well yet, an' they often get tied up in meaningless little battles. But think of all the things they -can- do!

AI is a long, labourious project, which often requires hours and hours of tweaking to find out why Emperor Joe decided to go left instead of right. Even the computer player's Tactical combat is better than in MOO or even SE3. With more weapons, even!

The one thing I could suggest, though, it'd be nice to get some direct feedback on the updates... Like an email list for registered Users?

Anyhow. I'll stop picking on y'all and go back to fighting my way across the universe to dislodge my spouse from her stronghold behind the great rift...

- Crissa

------------------
Crissa Kentavr
Lost Girls