Dominions 2. AI. Suggestions, that how to fix it. - Page 22

HJ · #**211** November 9th, 2003, 09:25 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Taqwus:
The next turn, my main army (led by my Son of Niefel, fairly small but composed mostly of giants and with a number of Skratti and Godes et al) attacked -- not the besiegers, but the bridge. The Machakan force on that bridge, before the attack hit, joined the besiegers.

I would say that this is another example of the AI constantly pacing back and forth with his armies, and not a deliberate move. If you wanted to fight that army, you should have just waited and attacked the next turn - they would have walked back from the besieged province. It's a very predictable behavioral pattern for some reason.

Mortifer · #**212** November 9th, 2003, 09:43 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by HJ:

quote:
Originally posted by Taqwus:
The next turn, my main army (led by my Son of Niefel, fairly small but composed mostly of giants and with a number of Skratti and Godes et al) attacked -- not the besiegers, but the bridge. The Machakan force on that bridge, before the attack hit, joined the besiegers.

I would say that this is another example of the AI constantly pacing back and forth with his armies, and not a deliberate move. If you wanted to fight that army, you should have just waited and attacked the next turn - they would have walked back from the besieged province. It's a very predictable behavioral pattern for some reason.

Yup one of the many problematic points of the AI.
This is already a well known AI weakness btw...

[ November 09, 2003, 20:33: Message edited by: Mortifer ]

NTJedi · #**213** November 9th, 2003, 10:49 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Mortifer:

quote:
Originally posted by HJ:

quote:
Originally posted by Taqwus:
The next turn, my main army (led by my Son of Niefel, fairly small but composed mostly of giants and with a number of Skratti and Godes et al) attacked -- not the besiegers, but the bridge. The Machakan force on that bridge, before the attack hit, joined the besiegers.

I would say that this is another example of the AI constantly pacing back and forth with his armies, and not a deliberate move. If you wanted to fight that army, you should have just waited and attacked the next turn - they would have walked back from the besieged province. It's a very predictable behavioral pattern for some reason.
Yup one of the many problematic points of the AI.
This is already a well known AI weakness btw...

This is why I suggested multiple personalities for the AI opponents because then we would not see this problem. Even as the developers improve the AI for this game as time passes more and more weaknesses/flaws will be discovered thus only leaving a challenge for human multiplayer games. If the AI opponents had multiple AI personalities it would keep gamers guessing... especially if the personalities would randomly change every 40 turns.
Hopefully Dominions_III they will be able to provide this or a miracle patch. I've suggested the same to the developers of Age_of_Wonders series and most of the gamers there also seem to agree.

Chris Byler · #**214** November 9th, 2003, 11:25 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Taqwus:
The AI should pay more attention to supply lines and the risk of strategic encirclement.

If it's going to risk being cut off, it really should make an attempt to forge supply items and bring them along (which requires nature magic; perhaps AIs should make more use of indy druids et al). This is particularly true when using troops with a low base morale, because of the 4 point penalty...

e.g. Last night playing the demo solo as Jotunheim (Utgard theme), I found and attacked the Machakans. At one point, they attacked a forward fort of mine. Their sieging force, mostly Machakan light foot with spider knights, was adjacent to only one Machakan-held province, which in turn was adjacent to their only castle (Machaka itself). In this single-province bridge lay another Machakan force led by the spider lady herself. Next to this bridge lay my main force.

The next turn, my main army (led by my Son of Niefel, fairly small but composed mostly of giants and with a number of Skratti and Godes et al) attacked -- not the besiegers, but the bridge. The Machakan force on that bridge, before the attack hit, joined the besiegers. That meant that the besiegers, while they were now making decent progress against the walls, were completely surrounded -- and I annihilated them the following turn, as the morale-4 troops were trivial to rout. Well in excess of half of the total Machakan armed forces, including a decent national hero, were obliterated at little cost since they had nowhere to run... That made it far easier to take Machaka a couple of turns later.

Also, if it is caught in that situation, it should attempt to cut back to friendly lines. Usually in such a situation there are several directions the beseigers could have gone where they would have encountered little or no resistance and could have reestablished their supply lines within a few turns (although of course it would have meant abandoning the siege, this is surely far preferable to having your beseiging army wiped out).

An inferior force (and while they may have had decent force, they were definitely inferior while starving) should almost always try to avoid battle. (The exception is when they are in a desperate enough situation that avoiding battle will do no good - for example, if the entire army was already diseased, then making it back to friendly lines would be of little value.)

MStavros · #**215** November 10th, 2003, 01:03 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by NTJedi:

quote:
Originally posted by Mortifer:

quote:
Originally posted by HJ:

quote:
Originally posted by Taqwus:
The next turn, my main army (led by my Son of Niefel, fairly small but composed mostly of giants and with a number of Skratti and Godes et al) attacked -- not the besiegers, but the bridge. The Machakan force on that bridge, before the attack hit, joined the besiegers.

I would say that this is another example of the AI constantly pacing back and forth with his armies, and not a deliberate move. If you wanted to fight that army, you should have just waited and attacked the next turn - they would have walked back from the besieged province. It's a very predictable behavioral pattern for some reason.
Yup one of the many problematic points of the AI.
This is already a well known AI weakness btw...
This is why I suggested multiple personalities for the AI opponents because then we would not see this problem. Even as the developers improve the AI for this game as time passes more and more weaknesses/flaws will be discovered thus only leaving a challenge for human multiplayer games. If the AI opponents had multiple AI personalities it would keep gamers guessing... especially if the personalities would randomly change every 40 turns.
Hopefully Dominions_III they will be able to provide this or a miracle patch. I've suggested the same to the developers of Age_of_Wonders series and most of the gamers there also seem to agree.

Hehe, dominions 3.......if there will be Doms 3. at all.
The idea is good, but I guess, that the devs can update the AI very well, without adding major content -like the personalities.
I think that list made by Aristoteles is very valid, and all of those problems must be fixed.
Gandalf, your question was that what heavy units the AI should build.
I think that it is not our job to make suggestions about this one. The devs will know that what -and- how, since we do not know that AI scripts.

[ November 10, 2003, 11:04: Message edited by: MStavros ]

Gandalf Parker · #**216** November 10th, 2003, 04:19 PM

Quote:

Gandalf, your question was that what heavy units the AI should build.
I think that it is not our job to make suggestions about this one. The devs will know that what -and- how, since we do not know that AI scripts.

Yes it is. The Devs have asked for specific examples. It may give them ideas of where the AI should be modified. Or it may give us some more awareness on the problems here. People say that the devs are ignoring these threads but this is a 15 page thread that was answered numerous times starting with the second post. We seem to be ignoring their answers.

We could just start with one nation. When people say that the AI isnt using enough hvy units, what AI are they referring to? What units? If we can come up with a formula then we can compare that formula to other nations to see how it would go.

Illwinter listening to players debate formulas is what made Dom1 what it was.

DominionsFan · #**217** November 10th, 2003, 11:08 PM

Hey, I think that the AI should mix the heavy units, IE. it should use all of them. I think that all of the heavy troops are very good.
I am always using lot of different heavy troops and it is working very well.

NTJedi · #**218** November 11th, 2003, 08:00 AM

The developers want specific examples...

I believe the developers should have the AI create armies which they feel would be effective during gameplay. Hopefully they've played the game enough to know what combinations make a powerful attack force.

The current build of having massive amounts of small troops should be left for the 'easy AI' setting.
-On the same note: If NASA asked how to build a good space shuttle... I would look them in the eye and say 'Your the Experts' .

___________________________________

The only suggestion I highly recommend is having the AI opponent able to build multiple/random types of army combinations. If only one default army design is built the human players will quickly learn then master it.

-Storm- · #**219** November 11th, 2003, 11:02 AM

I don't get it. We had a suggestion that the AI should build more Heavy troops. So than? It should build HI, HC, summon powerful monsters etc. etc.
Why is this so complicated??

Gandalf Parker · #**220** November 11th, 2003, 04:41 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by -Storm-:
I don't get it. We had a suggestion that the AI should build more Heavy troops. So than? It should build HI, HC, summon powerful monsters etc. etc.
Why is this so complicated??

Its like saying that people should own more porsches. Specific formulas could be tested for whether it would be workable more situations than it would be stupid. This is getting nuts. Out of all of these "different" people saying this needs done SURELY one of them can come up with a few specifics.

Everything has its pros and cons. Usually the disadvantage of having hvy units is that you dont get very many of them compared to lighter units. Building too many, too soon, and definetly thinking that ALL the AIs should do it would not be a good idea. (and Im suspecting its one that the Devs have already come up against). But I agree that all lighter units is not a good idea. I dont think thats whats being done except in the early game when gold/resources are limited.

And the devs have ASKED for specifics. Id say that unless we try to work this further we can probably consider the matter dropped.

SO what AI? What units? What percentages? Lets test the Groups on the "battle simulator" (mini.map) and pin this down.