Concerns about lack of Tutorial and Price of Game

Dryton · #1 October 30th, 2003, 10:10 PM

( This is not a flame or a rant, I LIKE THE GAME, I just have some issues is all)

I am a longtime SE fan and I own quit a few other Shrapnel titles as well. I am not too concerned about graphics of the game although it's pretty rough. I'm big on gameplay, strategy and re-playability however I think that quality graphics and sound should be a part of any game nowadays. I like the demo and the game deffinately seems to have promise, however I was not at all impressed that there was no tutorial. Not a smart idea to send a demo out to try to get people to buy the game and they end up getting frustrated in the first 5 - 10 minutes into the game because they couldn't figure out that they had to create a God before they could start playing (yea, I saw the little sub-title down in the bottom but my other 3 friends did not).

My main issue however is with the price of the game. How did Shrapnel or Illwinter come up w/ this kind of price tag??? This game is by no means an "A-List" game. It's very rough around the edges and would not stand up to the games that are coming out in today's standards when it comes to graphics and sound. Other turn based strategy games that come to mind are Age of Wonders and Civ 3 (I paid 39.99 for AoW). I would like to get everyone's feedback on this or just some explanation to a loyal Shrapnel fan as to why I should pay 45.95 for a game that should be priced around 34.95 or less.

licker · #2 October 30th, 2003, 10:19 PM

Its a tricky question I suppose, the pricing of a game such as this through a company such as Shrapnel.

In the end you'll only be willing to pay what you think the game is worth, I think the game is worth the $40 I spent (got the $5 discount), but everyone will have their own opinion.

GFX and Sound are fluff (which you point out), they can help or hinder though, compared to Dom1 they are drastically improved, so perhaps the people coming from Dom1 arn't the best to answer critiques on Gfx and Sound. Really though I don't see them as a hinderance, though they are not as nice and clean as in other titles. Again, its going to be a personal decision as to how much you need better gfx and sound over gameplay.

I think that part of what you are paying for is the continued support that the Devs will give this product. If their responces to suggestions from Dom1 is any indicator, it is likely that this Version of Dom2 (1.0 or whatever it is) won't be the final Version. Patches including not just bug fixes, but tweeks and new content will appear.

Anyway, you're questions are quite valid, just they are difficult to answer in an absolute sense...

Nerfix · #3 October 30th, 2003, 10:25 PM

It's the content that Dom II has. I once bougth AoW 2. To me it felt like the game would be in friggin beta testing phase... It was hardly stable.. All the nations had a handfull of units and all the nations were overused cliches... There were something like 14 spells per sphere... I couldn't care less about the sounds or graphics when the game was hardly working... Then i found Dom I and dumped AoW 2 immediatedly.

To me, the price is justified. People just can't see through the Gfx and Sfx...

Alneyan · #4 October 30th, 2003, 10:27 PM

There is a Quick Start guide to create a God and launch a party. It is located in the docs directory, but is unfortunately very *very* short (two pages). At least, you cannot say there are no tutorial.

Dominions 1 demo was too big on the other hand. There was almost everything, all nations, no turn limit, you were only lacking a few elite units and spells above level 4 (IIRC). You even had the manuals of the game in a PDF format.

I agree with you though, Dominions 2 is lacking some help for newbie players. And you may not be patient enough to check for resources on the web.

As for your second point, the price tag seems fine for me, but games are a bit more expensive in Europe I believe. Dominions 2 costs much less than almost every game when it launches (in France at least), especially with the current exchange rates. However, the shipping costs are expensive. (And I cannot buy the game for now, but that's another matter. *Grumbles*)

And the graphics and music are impressive for Dominions 2, when you have played the first game at least.

(There was no music, the graphics were... erh rough, and sound was rudimentary) However, I believe the price tag needs to be higher since less players will buy Dominions 2 than, say, AOW. (And there is not that much of a market for TBS games so.) The look of Dominions 2 isn't that bad really, and the music is enjoyable.

AOW:SM may be cheaper, but I never really enjoyed this game. Your average nations, a very limited list of spells, your average limited AI, while the multiplayer options are not that great. (No strategic battle, but instead figures and formulas when playing PBEM against humans. Strange) The graphics and sound of this game are impressive, but in the end, I would rather watch AOW than actually play that game.

PvK · #5 October 30th, 2003, 10:33 PM

Dominions is the best, or only game at doing what it does best. It offers extremely rich gameplay if you are interested in a huge variety of pseudo-historical nations, units, spells, magic items, etc., with interesting game balance, well-crafted cause & effect, varied and imaginitive situations, detail down to individual unit experience and specific Lasting battle wounds, large-scale battles resovled down to the individual man or monster, etc.

Many of the players who enjoy those things, don't particularly care about the graphics, or consider them secondary. The Doms II graphics are more than sufficient - my imagination far surpasses the latest multi-million-dollar graphics showcase game. Doms II is almost the only current computer game I have any real interest in buying.

For players who appreciate Doms II, they will be paying far less per hour of play than they would paying even $5 for a graphics masterpiece with no replay value.

I'm not sure how Shapnel figures its prices (something to do with the manual in this case?), but I just bought Doms I a couple of months ago, and even so I consider Doms II very reasonably priced considering the play value it has for me.

I don't even buy pretty-but-crappy games once they hit the $5 bargain bins. Ten such lemons would be a worse buy than one actually good and interesting game, to me anyway.

Also, the economy of producing and selling such games is entirely different comparing Illwinter/Shrapnel to mass-market games.

As for a lack of tutorial, I expect the fans would be happy to supply plenty of tips. A tutorial might help players figure out the game, but with the existing developers who have been doing this for years, they might not be the best ones to be spending their time guessing what new players won't understand.

PvK

[ October 30, 2003, 20:35: Message edited by: PvK ]

PvK · #6 October 30th, 2003, 10:41 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Alneyan:
...
And the graphics and music are impressive for Dominions 2, when you have played the first game at least. ...

Actually Dominions 1 does have music during battle, if you keep the CD in the drive! It was of the "hard rock" variety.

PvK

Rogue · #7 October 30th, 2003, 10:53 PM

Not a flame, or putting anyone down, this is just my (humble) opinion on DOM2.

Having played, and owned

pretty much all the 4x games out there lemme say this. This game absolutely rocks. PvK is *dead* on about DOM2. The depth of this game is simply amazing.

As far as pretty graphics as opposed to content? The multimedia aspects of this game ain't too shabby (imho), and I'm not playing on dog old system that can't handle the new stuff.

I've said it before, I'd rather play something interesting and involving than just "ooh" and "ahh" at shiny objects. Too many of the big time publishers push things out the door in a hurry and only worry about the eye/ear candy (MoO3 anyone?). I'll support Shrapnel and their product line any day so long as they continue to focus on quality of content over "shiny objects".

Not to mention, $50.00 isn't too bad considering how long you can play this game.

I also don't think it's too hard to figure out. I started testing w/o any documentation whatsover (I play first, read later

as I'm lazy). It only took me about 5 minutes to figure out how to get rolling on the game. Of course the more complicated nuances took me a bit to catch on to, but overall it was pretty intuitive.

Particle · #8 October 30th, 2003, 11:10 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Dryton:
I would like to get everyone's feedback on this or just some explanation to a loyal Shrapnel fan as to why I should pay 45.95 for a game that should be priced around 34.95 or less.

I second this.

Nerfix · #9 October 30th, 2003, 11:13 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Particle:

quote:
Originally posted by Dryton:
I would like to get everyone's feedback on this or just some explanation to a loyal Shrapnel fan as to why I should pay 45.95 for a game that should be priced around 34.95 or less.

I second this.

What is your favorite game? May i go to their offical MB and whine how their game is overpiced? If you aren't willing to pay $45 for a game like Dom II, then don't, but please, don't whine about it. I'm used to pay $50-60 for games.

licker · #10 October 30th, 2003, 11:18 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Particle:

quote:
Originally posted by Dryton:
I would like to get everyone's feedback on this or just some explanation to a loyal Shrapnel fan as to why I should pay 45.95 for a game that should be priced around 34.95 or less.

I second this.

More to the point...

Why do you feel the game should be priced lower?

I'd be happier if it were priced lower myself, but I'm not sure I have the reasons to justify such a pricing.

Its still cheaper than alot of bigger name games out there. Remeber the comparision needs to be made to AoW2 not to AoWSM, SM is just a rehash of 2 with some tweeks and 3 new races. No big deal really, hell I was surprised they wanted $30 for it.

[ October 30, 2003, 22:08: Message edited by: licker ]