CherryMod Thread

[General Tacticus]

Originally posted by Saber Cherry:



But I have to ask, now. Everyone seems to have good reasons for samurai to not have wakizashis... does anyone know why they did? Were they for blocking, or just a "sidearm"?

-Cherry

Indeed, the samurais did not as a rule use two weapons in battle. The wakizashi was a back-up weapon, and a ceremonial one, not an off-hand one.

However, there was a famous Japanese samouraï (I can't remember the name) that did develop a two weapon style for katana and wakizashi, together. That style
was designed to fight against several opponents at once. It's also the kind of style that needs year to learn. So if you want to include it for elite troops, that would be all right I think.

Oh, and I would say that in that case the wakizashi is mostly for defensive purpose, so I would give these troops better defence, but only a weak attack with the wakizashi. Sort of like a parrying dagger.

[ January 06, 2004, 10:08: Message edited by: General Tacticus ]

[General Tacticus]

Originally posted by Arralen:
.. my 0,02 EUR on that matter:

Ninjas
.. oh no, please don't do that. There wheren't any people like black-clad mummy clans which stalked the night.
Those where an "invention" of Hongkong filmmakers who hired some workers from the docks as "sword fodder".

There where some stealthy assassines out there, but they didn't hide in the dark but under the disguise of common men edited: or women . So if you're giving the nation an assasine, make it look like some peasant or something.

Well, they weren't any fireball lobbing wizards in history either, and I would argue that black mummy ninjas are acceptable, if not as historically correct, then as a classic fantasy. Beside, I am sure that on some occasions, some of them did dress in black and blackened their faces. It's quite effective in some situations...

Most soldiers, only had standard issue weapons. As they, or their lord, or country, only had enough money to give them what they needed, not what they wanted. Which in most cases ment a primary and if you were lucky, a secondary weapon. Most commonly the secondary weapon was a knife, or dagger, or fork that was used as an eating utensil, shovel, comb, razor.

By and large fighting with two weapons made for clumsy combat and as most SCA fanbois will comment, fighting with a shield is about 100x more effective, though it doesn't look cool

Most of the ambidexterous units in the game at current are rare. Only a particular type are given it (Bane Spider, Lava Warrior, Warlord, etc) I don't think it would be all that unfathomable to have the monks and the ninjas dual wield, but not every elite unit they have.

Also, just a footnote. Most samurai used naginata as their primary weapon, from either horseback or on foot as it afforded them both reach to fight either type of troop (cavalry or foot) and ease of training as well as being able to bash things they couldn't cut.

[Arralen]

Do not mix up common soldiers and samurai - should be obvious that the latter are more equal to the european/near eastern knights.
However, their swords where mostly of at least "good" qualitity, even if they didn't have rice straw sandals to put on their feet in winter.
European knights on the other hand had some crappy armament at times ...

dual-wield
When I said "elite" troops, I meant that. Not just the beefed-up Version of infantry. In DOM terms this would most likely be the holy troop type.

As someone said - wielding 2 full-seized swords effectivly is very hard in every regard. The chinese swords used this way are generally rather short (up to 80cm) and very lightly build - I doubt they would pierce an late 1100 european-style double layered chain mail, neither trusting nor slashing.

Sometimes dual-wielding of the daisho is attributed to Miramoto Musashi ("Book of 5 Rings"), dating in the late 16th (early 17th - not shure about this) century. But I somehow doubt that it took really that long until someone got it right. On the other hand, as I said before, swords got shorter over time, and around 1100 it would have been simply impossible to use the Tachi/Katana of 1,4m one-handed all time.

The Wakizashi isn't an eastern form of the main-gauche, though. It's mostly 50-70 cm long and a real shortsword, not some form of dagger. It is carried at all times, so when in a friends house it's the main weapon, as the longsword is left at the entrance. In regular combat it is used when fighting in confined spaces or when the battle is that "tight" that the combatants get into grappling range regularly. It is used to deflect incoming blows, than counter-attack while the fighter closes in if used as a main weapon. Doing this while using it off-hand is incredibly difficult ...
Last -and least - it was used to commit seppuku ...

main weapon
At times, the bow was the primary weapon, sometimes the naginata, then some sword in varying length. I think personal preference and the randomness of situation would have had a strong influence.
Keep in mind, though, that in general blades with less than "good" quality where used for either swords given to peasant-soldiers or sword-lances in general. This shows that the lances where considered disposable to some degree.

Everything AFAIK and IMHO, as ever...

A.

edited: spelling

[ January 08, 2004, 07:48: Message edited by: Arralen ]

[Graeme Dice]

Originally posted by Arralen:
European knights on the other hand had some crappy armament at times ...

You might be using a different definition of knight than the standard one here, considering that a knight had at least enough land to support a horse for him to ride. That's the equivalent of tens of thousands of dollars in modern terms so their weapons wouldn't have been that bad.

[Saber Cherry]

I changed around some of the RS units as per the suggestions floating around... for example, the only dual-sword-wielding units are now the Elite Samurai and a couple commanders. All the other katana-and-wakizashi units have a piece of armor called a "wakizashi". All the ninja, monks, and ronin thugs dual-wield and are ambidextrous-2.

Also, I reduced the magic level of the master ninja and corrected some stat errors. And gave the hero Himura Battosai magical and heroic quickness. In-game, though, he will not be equippable with anything other than "misc" items, so he shouldn't turn out unbalanced. Similarly, the ninja assassins and geisha will either have no torso slot, or (if possible) lose their stealth when given armor. Stealthy-30 units in Black Steel Full Plate are pretty silly=)

As for the mythological units, I've not had time to add them yet but I will soon. Unless someone else wants to

Current Rising Sun lineup:

New Unit:
RS Peasant (Base creature: RS Peasant)

HP: 7 Str: 8
Prot: 0 Att: 8
Mrl: 6 Def: 7
Mrst: 9 Prec: 10
Enc: 6 AP: 6

Weapons: Kama
Items: Straw Hat

Gold: 3 Res: 1

********************************

New Unit:
RS Militia (Base creature: RS Militia)

HP: 8 Str: 8
Prot: 4 Att: 9
Mrl: 7 Def: 8
Mrst: 9 Prec: 10
Enc: 5 AP: 8

Weapons: Te Yari
Items: Hachi, Leather Cuirass

Gold: 5 Res: 4

********************************

New Unit:
RS Ronin Thug Nunchaku (Base creature: RS Ronin Thug)

HP: 10 Str: 10
Prot: 8 Att: 11
Mrl: 9 Def: 10
Mrst: 10 Prec: 10
Enc: 4 AP: 11

Ambidextrous 2

Weapons: Nunchaku, Nunchaku
Items: Hachi, Tatami Do

Gold: 6 Res: 1

********************************

New Unit:
RS Ronin Thug Wakizashi (Base creature: RS Ronin Thug)

HP: 10 Str: 10
Prot: 8 Att: 11
Mrl: 9 Def: 12
Mrst: 10 Prec: 10
Enc: 4 AP: 11

Ambidextrous 2

Weapons: Wakizashi, Tanto
Items: Hachi, Tatami Do

Gold: 6 Res: 1

********************************

New Unit:
RS Ronin (Base creature: RS Ronin)

HP: 10 Str: 10
Prot: 11 Att: 11
Mrl: 14 Def: 14
Mrst: 10 Prec: 10
Enc: 4 AP: 11

Weapons: Katana
Items: Wakizashi, Kabuto, Haramaki Do

Gold: 8 Res: 3

********************************

New Unit:
RS Yari Ashigaru (Base creature: RS Ashigaru)

HP: 10 Str: 10
Prot: 8 Att: 11
Mrl: 9 Def: 10
Mrst: 10 Prec: 10
Enc: 4 AP: 11

Weapons: Su Yari
Items: Hachi, Tatami Do

Gold: 9 Res: 10

********************************

New Unit:
RS Samurai Archer (Base creature: RS Samurai Archer)

HP: 10 Str: 10
Prot: 8 Att: 10
Mrl: 10 Def: 11
Mrst: 10 Prec: 11
Enc: 4 AP: 11

Weapons: Wakizashi, Yumi
Items: Hachi, Tatami Do

Gold: 10 Res: 12

********************************

New Unit:
RS Yari Samurai (Base creature: RS Light Samurai)

HP: 10 Str: 10
Prot: 11 Att: 11
Mrl: 11 Def: 10
Mrst: 10 Prec: 10
Enc: 4 AP: 11

Weapons: Su Yari
Items: Kabuto, Haramaki Do

Gold: 12 Res: 16

********************************

New Unit:
RS Light Samurai (Base creature: RS Light Samurai)

HP: 10 Str: 10
Prot: 10 Att: 11
Mrl: 11 Def: 14
Mrst: 10 Prec: 10
Enc: 4 AP: 11

Weapons: Katana
Items: Wakizashi, Hachi, Haramaki Do

Gold: 12 Res: 21

********************************

New Unit:
RS Nodachi Samurai (Base creature: RS Light Samurai)

HP: 10 Str: 10
Prot: 11 Att: 11
Mrl: 11 Def: 11
Mrst: 10 Prec: 10
Enc: 4 AP: 11

Weapons: Nodachi
Items: Kabuto, Haramaki Do

Gold: 12 Res: 23

********************************

New Unit:
RS Samurai (Base creature: RS Samurai)

HP: 11 Str: 10
Prot: 14 Att: 11
Mrl: 11 Def: 13
Mrst: 10 Prec: 9
Enc: 5 AP: 10

Weapons: Katana
Items: Wakizashi, Kabuto, Nuinobe Do

Gold: 13 Res: 28

********************************

New Unit:
RS Naginata Samurai (Base creature: RS Samurai)

HP: 11 Str: 10
Prot: 14 Att: 11
Mrl: 11 Def: 9
Mrst: 10 Prec: 9
Enc: 5 AP: 10

Weapons: Naginata
Items: Kabuto, Nuinobe Do

Gold: 13 Res: 24

********************************

New Unit:
RS Heavy Samurai (Base creature: RS Heavy Samurai)

HP: 11 Str: 11
Prot: 17 Att: 11
Mrl: 12 Def: 12
Mrst: 10 Prec: 8
Enc: 7 AP: 8

Weapons: Katana
Items: Wakizashi, Kabuto, Yukino****a Do

Gold: 15 Res: 32

********************************

New Unit:
RS Heavy Naginata Samurai (Base creature: RS Heavy Samurai)

HP: 11 Str: 11
Prot: 17 Att: 11
Mrl: 12 Def: 8
Mrst: 10 Prec: 8
Enc: 7 AP: 8

Weapons: Naginata
Items: Kabuto, Yukino****a Do

Gold: 15 Res: 28

********************************

New Unit:
RS Elite Samurai (Base creature: RS Elite Samurai)

HP: 11 Str: 11
Prot: 14 Att: 11
Mrl: 13 Def: 12
Mrst: 11 Prec: 9
Enc: 5 AP: 10

Ambidextrous 3

Weapons: Katana, Wakizashi
Items: Kabuto, Nuinobe Do

Gold: 16 Res: 28

********************************

New Unit:
RS Samurai Cavalry (Base creature: RS Samurai Cavalry)

HP: 13 Str: 11
Prot: 17 Att: 11
Mrl: 12 Def: 15
Mrst: 11 Prec: 8
Enc: 5 AP: 20

Mounted

Weapons: Katana, Hoof
Items: Wakizashi, Kabuto, Yukino****a Do

Gold: 30 Res: 37

********************************

New Unit:
RS Horse Archer (Base creature: RS Horse Archer)

HP: 12 Str: 11
Prot: 10 Att: 11
Mrl: 11 Def: 13
Mrst: 10 Prec: 11
Enc: 4 AP: 24

Mounted

Weapons: Te Yari, Daikyu, Hoof
Items: Hachi, Haramaki Do

Gold: 25 Res: 14

********************************

New Unit:
RS Blind Monk (Base creature: RS Blind Monk)

HP: 9 Str: 10
Prot: 11 Att: 13
Mrl: 14 Def: 16
Mrst: 14 Prec: 4
Enc: 3 AP: 10

Sacred

Weapons: Iron Fist, Iron Fist, Kick
Items: Robe

Gold: 30 Res: 10

********************************

New Unit:
RS Monk (Base creature: RS Monk)

HP: 10 Str: 10
Prot: 5 Att: 11
Mrl: 14 Def: 13
Mrst: 13 Prec: 10
Enc: 3 AP: 12

Sacred, Stealthy 0, Ambidextrous 2

Weapons: Knife Hand, Nerve Strike, Kick
Items: Robe

Gold: 16 Res: 1

********************************

New Unit:
RS Monk Bo (Base creature: RS Monk)

HP: 10 Str: 10
Prot: 5 Att: 11
Mrl: 14 Def: 15
Mrst: 13 Prec: 10
Enc: 3 AP: 12

Sacred, Stealthy 0, Ambidextrous 2

Weapons: Bo, Kick
Items: Robe

Gold: 16 Res: 1

********************************

New Unit:
RS Monk Sai (Base creature: RS Monk)

HP: 10 Str: 10
Prot: 5 Att: 11
Mrl: 14 Def: 17
Mrst: 13 Prec: 10
Enc: 3 AP: 12

Sacred, Stealthy 0, Ambidextrous 2

Weapons: Sai, Sai, Kick
Items: Robe

Gold: 16 Res: 4

********************************

New Unit:
RS Ninja (Base creature: RS Ninja)

HP: 10 Str: 10
Prot: 3 Att: 11
Mrl: 12 Def: 16
Mrst: 10 Prec: 11
Enc: 3 AP: 12

Stealthy 20, Ambidextrous 2

Weapons: Ninja to, Sai, Shuriken
Items: Ninja Garb, Kote

Gold: 20 Res: 10

********************************

New Unit:
RS Monk Commander (Base creature: RS Monk Commander)

HP: 10 Str: 11
Prot: 5 Att: 11
Mrl: 14 Def: 15
Mrst: 13 Prec: 10
Enc: 3 AP: 12

Sacred, Stealthy 0, Ambidextrous 3

Magic: Holy 2
Weapons: Bo, Kick
Items: Robe

Gold: 30 Res: 1

********************************

New Unit:
RS Shinto Master (Base creature: RS Shinto Master)

HP: 10 Str: 10
Prot: 1 Att: 11
Mrl: 14 Def: 15
Mrst: 15 Prec: 10
Enc: 3 AP: 12

Sacred

Magic: Holy 3
Weapons: Bo, Kick
Items: Robe

Gold: 60 Res: 1

********************************

New Unit:
RS Samurai Commander (Base creature: RS Samurai Commander)

HP: 12 Str: 10
Prot: 17 Att: 11
Mrl: 12 Def: 11
Mrst: 11 Prec: 10
Enc: 7 AP: 8

Ambidextrous 3

Weapons: Katana, Wakizashi
Items: Kabuto, Yukino****a Do

Gold: 30 Res: 32

********************************

New Unit:
RS Mounted Commander (Base creature: RS Mounted Commander)

HP: 13 Str: 10
Prot: 10 Att: 11
Mrl: 12 Def: 17
Mrst: 11 Prec: 12
Enc: 4 AP: 25

Mounted

Weapons: Katana, Daikyu, Hoof
Items: Wakizashi, Hachi, Haramaki Do

Gold: 50 Res: 23

********************************

New Unit:
RS Daimyo (Base creature: RS Daimyo)

HP: 14 Str: 11
Prot: 17 Att: 12
Mrl: 14 Def: 17
Mrst: 11 Prec: 8
Enc: 5 AP: 22

Ambidextrous 3, Mounted

Weapons: Katana, Sai, Hoof
Items: Kabuto, Yukino****a Do

Gold: 80 Res: 35

********************************

New Unit:
RS Sword Saint (Base creature: RS Sword Saint)

HP: 12 Str: 12
Prot: 1 Att: 14
Mrl: 14 Def: 15
Mrst: 13 Prec: 10
Enc: 3 AP: 12

Sacred

Magic: Holy 2
Weapons: Nodachi
Items: Robe

Gold: 60 Res: 11

********************************

New Unit:
RS Geisha (Base creature: RS Geisha)

HP: 9 Str: 9
Prot: 0 Att: 9
Mrl: 12 Def: 6
Mrst: 11 Prec: 10
Enc: 3 AP: 11

Seductress, Stealthy 40

Weapons: Tessen, Kansashi

Gold: 60 Res: 1

********************************

New Unit:
RS Shinobi (Base creature: RS Shinobi)

HP: 10 Str: 10
Prot: 3 Att: 11
Mrl: 10 Def: 13
Mrst: 10 Prec: 10
Enc: 3 AP: 12

Spy, Stealthy 30, Ambidextrous 2

Weapons: Ninja to, Tanto, Blowgun
Items: Ninja Garb, Kote

Gold: 35 Res: 9

********************************

New Unit:
RS Ninja Assassin (Base creature: RS Ninja Assassin)

HP: 10 Str: 10
Prot: 3 Att: 12
Mrl: 12 Def: 13
Mrst: 11 Prec: 10
Enc: 3 AP: 12

Assassin, Stealthy 30, Ambidextrous 2

Weapons: Ninja to, Poison Dagger, Shuriken
Items: Ninja Garb, Kote

Gold: 50 Res: 8

********************************

New Unit:
RS Ninja of the Sacred Flame (Base creature: RS Ninja of the Sacred Flame)

HP: 11 Str: 11
Prot: 3 Att: 14
Mrl: 14 Def: 14
Mrst: 14 Prec: 10
Enc: 3 AP: 12

Resistances:

Fire: 100 Cold: 0
Shock: 0 Poison: 0

Assassin, Sacred, Stealthy 30, Ambidextrous 2

Magic: Fire 2
Weapons: Ninja to, Poison Dagger, Enchanted Shuriken
Items: Ninja Garb, Kote

Gold: 130 Res: 8

********************************

New Unit:
RS Death Ninja (Base creature: RS Death Ninja)

HP: 10 Str: 10
Prot: 3 Att: 12
Mrl: 13 Def: 13
Mrst: 12 Prec: 10
Enc: 3 AP: 12

Assassin, Stealthy 30, Ambidextrous 2, Fear -4

Magic: Death 1
Weapons: Ninja to, Poison Dagger, Shuriken
Items: Ninja Garb, Kote

Gold: 80 Res: 8

********************************

New Unit:
RS Ninja Master (Base creature: RS Ninja Master)

HP: 10 Str: 11
Prot: 3 Att: 13
Mrl: 14 Def: 14
Mrst: 13 Prec: 10
Enc: 3 AP: 12

Assassin, Stealthy 35, Ambidextrous 2

Magic: Fire 1, Random 1
Weapons: Ninja to, Ninja to, Shuriken
Items: Ninja Garb, Kote

Gold: 120 Res: 11

********************************

New Unit:
RS Wise Man (Base creature: RS Wise Man)

HP: 7 Str: 8
Prot: 0 Att: 8
Mrl: 10 Def: 6
Mrst: 16 Prec: 9
Enc: 5 AP: 8

Amphibian 2

Magic: Water 2, Nature 1, Random 2
Weapons: Fist

Gold: 220 Res: 1

********************************

New Unit:
RS Himura Battosai (Base creature: RS Himura Battosai)

HP: 11 Str: 12
Prot: 1 Att: 20
Mrl: 18 Def: 17
Mrst: 13 Prec: 10
Enc: 2 AP: 42

Hero, Assassin, Stealthy 20, Air Shield 50
Magic Quickness, Quickness 75

Weapons: Battosai no Katana
Items: Robe, Godlike Speed

********************************

[Arralen]

I would suggest removing the Wakizashi as even as "faked" secondary weapon from most samurai troops completely, because

- they simply weren't able to use both swords at once, and fought 1,5-handed using the Katana

- therefore they didn't use the W. as some kind of "shield-substitute" to block or deflect incoming blows.

By the way -did you make it some kind armor or shield. Making it a shield would result in a ridiculous arrow blocking ability (hey, we don't do Hongkong films here ), making it a piece of armor would have other consequences I'm not shure about (=> armor piercing, items/spells that destroy armor etc.).

What stats are you using for the Wakizashi?

Edited: Really cute idea for elite hero samurai .. or ninja turtles

Make the Wakizashi a shield. Give it non-poisonous thorns, if there's something like this possible within the limit of the current game engine.

This way the hero would be able to deflect incoming arrows (Everyone knows they could cut them out of the air!) AND counter-attack (kind off) attacks with short weapons with the off-hand. (Dunno if this would be auto-hit, so maybe damage should be rather small).

yours,
Arralen

[ January 08, 2004, 08:04: Message edited by: Arralen ]

[General Tacticus]

Prot 17 AND Defense 17 on a unit (the daimyo) ? And others I see have high protection AND high defense as well...

I am afraid this is just too powerful. It will need to be tested of course. On a commander, if it comes from good, pre-equiped items, and the price is right, it might be ok. Otherwise you are just creating cheap and easy SC material here, and almost impossible to kill armies... I am also concerned about 3 gold 1 ressource armies, especially the 3 gold. Even hogsburg militias are not that cheap, and yours can be recruited in any castle... Granted, they are the worse units I have yet to see, but there comes a point where stats don't matter, all you are looking for is the cheapest arrow catcher in sight, and you have just given a new meaning to the concept...

[Saber Cherry]

Originally posted by Arralen:
I would suggest removing the Wakizashi as even as "faked" secondary weapon from most samurai troops completely, because

- they simply weren't able to use both swords at once, and fought 1,5-handed using the Katana

- therefore they didn't use the W. as some kind of "shield-substitute" to block or deflect incoming blows.

By the way -did you make it some kind armor or shield. Making it a shield would result in a ridiculous arrow blocking ability (hey, we don't do Hongkong films here ), making it a piece of armor would have other consequences I'm not shure about (=> armor piercing, items/spells that destroy armor etc.).

Right now it is a non-shield armor that takes 1 hand. Not sure if this is possible in the real game... but yeah, I don't want normal units blocking arrows with them.

What stats are you using for the Wakizashi?

Weapon: dam=5 def=2 length=1 hands=1 hits=1 res=4
Armor: def=2 hands=1 res=4

As a Last resort, I could take away all wakizashi stats but give it the special ability "Self Blood Sacrifice" so that seppukuing troops (RS does not "rout") at least increase your dominion=)

By Tacticus:
Prot 17 AND Defense 17 on a unit (the daimyo) ? And others I see have high protection AND high defense as well...

I am afraid this is just too powerful. It will need to be tested of course. On a commander, if it comes from good, pre-equiped items, and the price is right, it might be ok. Otherwise you are just creating cheap and easy SC material here, and almost impossible to kill armies... I am also concerned about 3 gold 1 ressource armies, especially the 3 gold. Even hogsburg militias are not that cheap, and yours can be recruited in any castle... Granted, they are the worse units I have yet to see, but there comes a point where stats don't matter, all you are looking for is the cheapest arrow catcher in sight, and you have just given a new meaning to the concept...

The Daimyo's gold and resource cost may be (probably are) too low, but the stats are not unreasonable. I'll increase those costs. Keep in mind that he has no lance and no shield, unlike similar elite mounted commanders. In the combat sim, he is always beaten by the Ulm edit: Black Lord. Keep in mind that all these stats are derived, not base. Here are his weapon stats:

name=Katana dam=7 att=1 def=1 length=2 hands=1 hits=1 res=7
name=Sai dam=2 def=3 hands=1 hits=1 length=0 res=2

So he's getting a +3 mounted and +4 weapon defense bonus... his base defense is 13. Perhaps he should get a wakizashi instead of a sai? Anyway, he lacks a shield and lance (major negatives), is not sacred, but is otherwise similar to comparable units (except for his low prices, which I will raise). For comparison:

New Unit:
RS Daimyo (Base creature: RS Daimyo)

HP: 14 Str: 11
Prot: 17 Att: 12
Mrl: 14 Def: 17
Mrst: 11 Prec: 8
Enc: 5 AP: 22

Ambidextrous 3, Mounted

Weapons: Katana, Sai, Hoof
Items: Kabuto, Yukino****a Do

Gold: 80 Res: 35

********************************

Ulm Black Lord (Base creature: Ulm Black Lord)

HP: 17 Str: 14
Prot: 24 Att: 13
Mrl: 16 Def: 10
Mrst: 9 Prec: 10
Enc: 5 AP: 18

Mounted

Weapons: Lance, Morningstar, Hoof
Items: Full Plate of Ulm, Full Helmet, Kite Shield

Gold: 130 Res: 70

********************************

PY Serpent Lord (Base creature: PY Serpent Lord)

HP: 15 Str: 13
Prot: 18 Att: 14
Mrl: 15 Def: 15
Mrst: 11 Prec: 8
Enc: 3 AP: 16

Mounted

Weapons: Spear, Bite
Items: Plate Hauberk, Helmet, Round Shield

Gold: 130 Res: 58

********************************

TC Prince General (Base creature: TC Prince General)

HP: 10 Str: 10
Prot: 15 Att: 14
Mrl: 16 Def: 16
Mrst: 12 Prec: 10
Enc: 5 AP: 22

Sacred, Mounted

Weapons: Lance, Falchion, Hoof
Items: Full Scale Mail, Helmet, Round Shield

Gold: 150 Res: 42

********************************

Man Knight of Avalon (Base creature: Man Knight of Avalon)

HP: 14 Str: 12
Prot: 20 Att: 12
Mrl: 15 Def: 16
Mrst: 13 Prec: 10
Enc: 5 AP: 30

Mounted

Weapons: Lance, Broad Sword, Hoof
Items: Full Chain Mail, Full Helmet, Kite Shield

Gold: 85 Res: 61

********************************

MAR Paladin (Base creature: MAR Paladin)

HP: 15 Str: 13
Prot: 20 Att: 13
Mrl: 16 Def: 14
Mrst: 12 Prec: 10
Enc: 5 AP: 20

Sacred, Mounted

Weapons: Lance, Broad Sword, Hoof
Items: Full Chain Mail, Full Helmet, Kite Shield

Gold: 130 Res: 61

********************************

.
.
.

As far as peasants go. The price that I put in may be unbalanced (I hope not!). However... it is not unrealistic. Rather, Illwinter's prices for militia, slingers, and such trash units are very high in my opinion. An untrained militia pressed into the army and handed a spear does not cost 70% of training and equipping a heavy infantry unit.

I plan to rebalance all the militia in the game to fall more into line with those numbers.

And for ronin... like gladiators, they leave after a battle. Monks are powerful but expensive and limited by holy level (and low protection).

I understand your concerns, and they may very well be justified. Currently, RS has the 3rd best melee units after Jotunheim and Abysia in the combat sim. But they are somewhat magically weak (level-2 water, level-2 fire, level-1 death, level-1 nature, and some randoms), average holy powers (level-3 max), and have no shields at all... which, I think, will make their armies incredibly vulnerable to crossbows. And their good troops are all very expensive.

So, it's hard to say at this point... until I can actually see them on a battlefield. But thanks for brining the Daimyo to my attention, anyway - looks like the RS cavalry needs a bit of cost boosting.

-Cherry

[ January 08, 2004, 17:54: Message edited by: Saber Cherry ]

Please take into consideration some of your resource costs Cherrypie

The one I'd note is the 17 Defense 16 gold, 4 resource, stealth monks. While I'm a fan of stealth units. Just look at how much it costs to make a decent army of them initially.

320 Gold, 80 Resources = 20 17 Defense Monks
640 Gold, 160 Resources = 40 17 Defense Monks

Normally it wouldn't matter, but they have low encumberance (3), full dual wielding with 3 attacks (remember each attack after the 1st on a unit lowers the defense of it by 1, so they don't need high att) and 17 defense that with the exception of a few nations and most certainly independants, would have a hard time to deal with.

With that kind of resources you could have an army of 20 turn 1, and 2 turns later probably 20 more. And with such low initial cost their upkeep is low for being a stealth unit.

Just something to consider on the stealth units.

Edit: Just noticed they were sacred too. So throw Quickness on them with a +4 Defense for a 9 Water blessing and they are very nearly Vans with a grillion attacks for 16 gold and 4 resources.

Edit: I just noticed that you said in your post that RS units don't rout? At all? Or are you just going to make them have a high morale so that represents the amount of conviction they have towards their god?

DO they just die if they retreat? Or am I reading more into that, (if so, that could be RS's total fall, not being able to rout would be a huge weakness vs fear units and terror. Ermor and C'tis would invariably make them run and hide under their fancy dresses )

[ January 08, 2004, 22:37: Message edited by: Zen ]