Tien Chi! Sigh . . .

[Keir Maxwell]

It turns out Tien Chi was the first race I played upon getting the full game - first Barbarian Kings then Spring and Summer.

I haven't done this bad playing dom since I first tried the demo to dom1!

I really like the themes and I'm rapt to see them in the game but playing them is . . . er . . . aaah . . . difficult . . . I can't think of a constructive way of putting it - they suck! They suck big time.

I have been playing these races solidly since I got the game 24 hours ago and I haven't come up with an idea that works. I have pillaged and slaughtered my way through the various races and themes of the demo leaving indies in my wake but I can't even get a half decent start with the Tien Chi themes.

Its not that I have completely run out of ideas - I still have a couple of schemes - its just that the troops combined with the scale restrictions are weak and very, very, hard to make use of. Compulsary turmoil is bad in Dom 2 and even when you try and get around it with maximim luck and the Lady of Fortune I can't make anything good out of it.

Suggested fixes? Both Barbarian Kings and Srping and Autumn have major disadvantages imposed upon them compared to Tien Chi normal so to make up for it increase their strengths.

1. Allow troops on hold and attack or guard commander to fire their missile weapons so that the cavalry can be used with cunning.

2. Increased precision for the horse archers and HC of the Barbarian Kingdoms option to furthur reflect the superiority of the conquering steppe cavalry.

3. Increase pillage ability for the Barbarian King option (good idea Nerfix).

4. Non-commmander chariots for the Spring and Autumn option with some limit on number buildable - perhaps home province only though this doesn't fit well with the decentralised theme. Limit of 1 per turn per castle would be better but perhaps hard to code in.

Obviously the Celestial and Spirit summons are interesting and have some potential but to get it to work the Barbarian King and Spring and Autumn themes need more military prowess to make up for their economic weakness. At present they are both militarily weak and economically weak.

If I have overlooked something crucial making these races work please let me know and I will beg forgiveness for complaining.

Cheers

Keir

[Nerfix]

Having "played" the allunits game, it seems that Barbarians Kings theme gets awfuly few new units, The Khan, Barbarian Horsemen and (possibly) Master of the Dead.

I don't have the full Version yet, but i just want to bring out my opinion:

I would like to see more Barbarian units with BK Tien, Barbarian units getting pillage bonus and getting Khan heroes (insted of immortals).

Chariot troops would also fit S&A Tien.

I'm not sure how to boos the economy of S&A... If BK would get troops with pillage bonus, they could just pillage provinces.

[Keir Maxwell]

Originally posted by Nerfix:
Having "played" the allunits game, it seems that Barbarians Kings theme gets awfuly few new units, The Khan, Barbarian Horsemen and (possibly) Master of the Dead.

Master of the Dead is for Spring and Autumn to and the LC and HC of the Barbarian Kings are better value Versions of the main theme - they also lose alot troop types. I don't mind the narrow range of units as I want to focus on a mounted caste of conquerors - I just want them to work better.

I'm not sure how to boos the economy of S&A... If BK would get troops with pillage bonus, they could just pillage provinces.

This is a good idea as it fits the theme. In general Barbarian Kings should have a weak economy but get cheap mounted troops to terrorize opposition with.

New Idea:

Khans get free LC when pillaging or conquering a province based on the level of turmoil (greater the better), the amount pillaged, and the number of enemy slain. Pillaging should be what really gets this going as that shows the world that you give your troops a chance to acquire loot rather than keeping them in check and protecting the populace.

You would get a message saying "a band of warriors seeking loot has joined your Khan."

This fits the theme of econmically weak but militarily strong as the troops don't come through gold but through conquest and pillage.

A Version for Spring and Autumn would see the Chariot Noble gaining retainers (mixed would be nice) when pillaging/conquering.

Neither Barbarian Kings nor Spring and Autumn get to utilize the Tien Chi advantage of conscription based on order due to enforced turmoil so replacing conscription for them with recruiting via pillage and conquest seems to fit nicely.

Your thoughts please,

Keir

[ November 22, 2003, 00:14: Message edited by: Keir Maxwell ]

[apoger]

Pillage is just not worthwhile, even with a bonus. Too much population is slain. The only reason to pillage would be to drain population from a province that you couldn't hold.

The two alternate themes for TC are hard to play. No doubt about that. I have yet to see power that would justify the forced turmoil.

[Keir Maxwell]

Originally posted by apoger:
Pillage is just not worthwhile, even with a bonus. Too much population is slain. The only reason to pillage would be to drain population from a province that you couldn't hold.

In general I agree but from the timing of our Posts I'm assumming you didn't see the one I put up about recruitment through pillage. What do you think of that idea Alex?

My hope is that you could create an aggressive race which never really builds much of an economy and yet its armies still grow thus keeping it in the game.

Cheers

Keir

[apoger]

Ah, recruitment via pillage. Interesting.
Seems reasonable. I'd love to see that tested.

[LordArioch]

The barbarian kings seems to get slightly better cavalry for disorder 2...not good-looking to me. Spring and autumn looks interesting for the magic but loses its good cavalry units which removes most of my interest...and disorder-1 doesnt help either.

The most logical fix would be as Keir has suggested, as well as Nerfix.

Recruitment through pillaging with a reduction on the population loss and increased gold on pillaging because they were so effective.

Then they could have Turmoil in their provinces and in general it wouldn't matter since they don't require a castle to build their units outside of the Khan and elite.

If you could balance the numbers of recruitment and gold vs pillaging it would be an interesting twist on the entire theme/race.

[Keir Maxwell]

How about when an army with a Khan conquers a province it automatically pillages it and gains recruits.

This avoids the Khans pillaging while the Celestial masters conquer which would be silly as there is more prestige in conquering and pillaging than just pillaging.

It would have to be carefully balenced as this could lead to rapid build up of forces. However huge hordes of Horse Archers does not seem unrealistic or impossible to deal with.

I have come up with a semi-decent Spring theme race but its main strength is using the Prince of Death to get the start going. This gives me a chance to get a decent start and see how the rest of it unfolds rather than the stumbling I have been suffering from. In the go I just had I got chainmail of displacement through a random event on the 1st turn. Sure makes the Prince of Death a monster and works a treat on The Nobles to.

Most useful Celestial summons so far are the Spirits which are a must on turn 4.

cheers

Keir

[ November 22, 2003, 02:08: Message edited by: Keir Maxwell ]

I could see that as being potentially unbalancing. If it required time and resources (Units to pillage) then it would be akin to using your forces to generate resources. Also the new units (Horde or Hordling as I would name it) should be unable to pillage gaining units, but still be very good at pillaging (as most men who would join the horde would be to pillage, as that is the attraction).

Also throw in a racial chance for an uprising to occur in provinces, or increased chance of uprising, then it would suit it well.