Big Problem - Unbalanced random events

[Gandalf Parker]

Originally posted by Argitoth:
has anyone suggested that random events be totally disabled for the first 10 turns of the game? or 5 turns or 15 turns? maybe that could be a new game option. feel free to twist, add, subract, deform, and/or reform this idea.

If I remember correctly most of them are. For 10 turns I think. And the ones that arent are downplayed to the point that you almost have to take the extreme settings which could translate as "just plain asking for it" to get the worst ones to kick in. But this is foggy memory stuff.

And we do have a game setting for random events. Isnt there a thread somewhere here that tested all that?

The only test I ever did on this stuff was turning ALL scales to the worst possible settings to make maximum use of blessings (achieving all 4's and a couple 9's) and being very surprised that my capital didnt totally crumble in the early part of the game.

[ March 30, 2004, 02:02: Message edited by: Gandalf Parker ]

[Argitoth]

there are still events like labs burning down during the first 10 turns. One time I used a pretender with no magic, and before I could recruit my first mage, my lab burned. I just quit the game after that. (this was an MP game)

[PvK]

Just remember - people who wimp out and quit games as soon as something goes wrong, don't get to complain later that the game is too easy or predictable.

A game can be completely fair in its odds, and some players will still think otherwise and/or get upset and cheat the odds by quitting, if there is any chance of luck playing a major part. Even if the major loss events were removed, there would probably be people quitting because they didn't get the event they wanted early enough, or complaining about unfairness in MP games. Ah well.

PvK

[Gandalf Parker]

Originally posted by Argitoth:
there are still events like labs burning down during the first 10 turns. One time I used a pretender with no magic, and before I could recruit my first mage, my lab burned. I just quit the game after that. (this was an MP game)

Gee that would be a setback but there are plenty of merc mages that show up early in the game.

[Norfleet]

Originally posted by PvK:
* The "rain kills 25%" event seems odd because rain isn't generally that deadly.

Rain not deadly? Rain is very deadly. It'll burn holes through solid stone and eat away flesh and bone on contact, in some areas. If you go outside in the rain, you can be reduced to a dissolving skeleton in seconds.

[Peter Ebbesen]

Originally posted by Gandalf Parker:
If I remember correctly most of them are. For 10 turns I think. And the ones that arent are downplayed to the point that you almost have to take the extreme settings which could translate as "just plain asking for it" to get the worst ones to kick in. But this is foggy memory stuff.

I have had the unrest in my capital go from 0 to 58 in my capital in turn 3 due to the "Young raging rebels" random event in a luck 3/turmoil 3 setting. Turmoil 3 might be asking for it - luck 3 is not.

(That was the same game in which my capital temple was wiped out and 25% of my #2 province's population lost within the first 8 turns. With independents 9 slowing expansion, that really, truly, hurt. Sometimes, you are just plain unlucky - no matter what your luck scale)

[SurvivalistMerc]

I have also toyed with the idea of having an option in game creation to tweak the scales rather than using a mod, which may be too complicated for some players.

Also, I wonder if it is possible to dispense with the luck/misfortune scale completely (so it can't generate points) and have no random events. That would be interesting to try a time or two.

[PrinzMegaherz]

Luck 1, Order 1, Turn 5

Random Event: Some local lord reveals himself to be a vampire and attacks your province. My home province of course.

I wonder why he did not bow to my vampire queen?

Thank you, new game please.

[ March 31, 2004, 18:22: Message edited by: PrinzMegaherz ]

[PvK]

There are so many players who quit as soon as they run into some serious bad luck. It's really too bad. Against the AI, these events provide unique and difficult challenges which players will never face if the they just quit whenever something really tough happens. In a multi-player game, quitting when something bad happens is, well, quitting on the other players. Serious bad events are part of the game and can happen to everyone. Any low scales increase those risks - that's a big part of why they are worth creation points, and restarting whenever those events actually happen is like trying to gamble but refusing to pay up on a loss. Especially against the AI or in a large MP game, there are plenty of opportunities to overcome such problems.

Many players though do seem to have a hard time getting this, so for them it does seem like they would benefit from more scenario options and/or nation options that would severely reduce the possibility of bad events. Also it might help if the documentation had some more explanation of how serious random events are part of the game, and how all the scales (not just Luck) impact them.

PvK

[Chris Byler]

PvK, I see your point, but having your home province beseiged by a vampire lord on turn 5 isn't a "unique and interesting challenge"; it's instant game over. You have no realistic chance of *ever* breaking that siege. You can't even raise an army to do so: your only fortress is beseiged!

Early loss of temples, labs, 50+ instant unrest, and even killing 1/4 of your population aren't necessarily instant death (although if you're in a MP game where the abilities of the players are anywhere near close, they're very likely to doom you). But having your home province beseiged by an immortal ethereal undead on turn 5? That's just ridiculous.

I thought certain events were supposed to be Banned from the first few turns - maybe Illwinter just forgot to put that one on the list.

IMO, the following should be Banned from capitol provinces only for at least the first 10 turns:
* Anything that attacks/beseiges the province (the aforementioned vampire lord, vinemen, the 5 heroes, etc.)
* Mass population killers (flood, emigration, hurricane)
* (maybe) Temple destruction - it's possible to recover from this by appointing a prophet to rebuild the temple, but I wouldn't mind seeing it added to the list anyway; prophet selection is crucial for some nations and this can force you to create the wrong prophet.

I'd also like to suggest some new bad events that I think are less severe than some of the existing ones:
* Some of your troops in (province) have contracted a deadly disease. (Immortals, undead and inanimates exempt, requires growth 0 or less)
* (Commandername) the (commandertype) has died of a sudden illness. (Pretenders, immortals, undead and inanimates exempt, requires growth 0 or less)
* Some of your troops in (province) have deserted your armies. (Pretender, prophet, sacred and mindless units exempt, chance of desertion depends on morale, requires order 0 or less)
* The province defense in (province) has become lax in its training and its effectiveness is reduced. (can only occur if there is some province defense there, requires order 1 or less)
* A thief has stolen (number) (type) magic gems from your treasury. (requires order 1 or less)
* [(Commander)'s] (magic item)'s power has dwindled and it is no longer effective. (artifacts exempt, requires magic -1 or less)
* (Province) has revolted against your rule and declared independence. (Requires high unrest but no scale requirements, the province generates a new set of independent forces which then attack your armies there; province defense fights on the side of the locals and if your armies win anyway, it is eliminated as if you had just conquered the province.)
* An unemployed mercenary commander has decided to set up his own kingdom in (province). (Requires the presence of an unemployed mercenary company in the mercenary list. It attacks the province and if it wins, becomes the garrison of the now independent province.)

Basically, anything that attacks your *present* power would be (IMO) less severe than the mass population killers which seem to be one of the most common bad events currently, even with high luck scales. Provinces attacked by neutral forces are fine - except if it's your home province very early - because you can always fight them and get it back relatively unharmed. But a province that has been torn down can't be built back up - at all, ever - and that makes pop hosers, especially early, very very bad for nations that aren't dead Ermor.

Taking away some troops, gems or items is clearly a bad event - even for Ermor, although some of the troop events I mentioned don't affect undead - but it isn't permanently crippling. And it's more in line with the good events, which give only one-time benefits (although some of them are fairly large one-time benefits, they still don't stack up to losing 50+ income *every turn forever*).