Please Help Me Tune My Man

[Gandalf Parker]

A note about wardens. Lord Warden and Wardens are one of the most powerful sneakable forces there is. Crones at home can be ready to rain Call of Wild/Wind onto any province that your sneaking army finds to soften it just before the atack.

Finding a druid province can give you sneakable archers. Or one with villains but thats more difficult. Add to that Bards, Monks, and Mother of Avalon you get the ability to completly and quickly setup shop in any province you take. Once its setup and operating on its own your sneaking army can move on.

OK its a tactic. And one that doesnt appeal to everyone. But it is effective if it fits your style.

[PvK]

Originally posted by Kristoffer O:
...
PROPHET FOR SALE, PROPHET FOR SALE! For a meagre 200 gold you will also get this army of fine men! Delivered right on your doorstep. Buy him today, only one remains!

I was wondering if you do make a mercenary into a prophet, and let someone else hire it, does it then spread your dominion wherever its new employers send it?

PvK

[Gandalf Parker]

Originally posted by PvK:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Kristoffer O:
...
PROPHET FOR SALE, PROPHET FOR SALE! For a meagre 200 gold you will also get this army of fine men! Delivered right on your doorstep. Buy him today, only one remains!

I was wondering if you do make a mercenary into a prophet, and let someone else hire it, does it then spread your dominion wherever its new employers send it?
PvK

---

I think we tested that in Dom1 and no, it didnt. It was interesting to get 2 prophets.

[Nagot Gick Fel]

Originally posted by apoger:
I avoid Vine men/ogres as they eat up too much mage-time to cast.

I tend to agree, although with drain I still forge an Ivy Crown or two and use idle bards or druids to summon vine things occasionally. My main use for the low nature mages is still to give relief to my battle mages though.

Don't invest in wardens, they are not very worthwhile as "bless effect" troops (IMHO).

Hmmm, I won't agree with you on this. Warden may have lost their +3 to strength and attack in Doms 2, but I think air shielding and lightning protection would more than make up for this. My air-9 Virtue example (still untested, I admit) should have an econ as strong as yours with the same drain setting, despite having growth+2 only, due to her dominion spreading faster. You could argue that raising Wizard Towers in rich provinces would help you keeping the edge, but I won't buy it - the ROI is way too slow to justify their building as a purely economical decision.

Of course I'd lost the impact of a strong supercombattant, but now the Wardens are worth building (and consequently the Fortified City also is) and an air-9 Virtue isn't useless in the battlefield either. Eek, depending on who you're up against, and with minimal equipment and buff spells, she can even be used as a meleer. Have you ever tried what a lucky/ethereal/air shielded/mistformed/mirrored air-9 Virtue (needs one astral mage obviously, but you'll get one eventually) can do if you have her fly in the rear of the enemy to wreak havoc with showers of shockwaves? I'd say it's as impressive as what an astral Manticore can do.

This is strickly from a MP point of view.

You should always be using your crones for some magic beatdown; yes.

But psychology is just as much a part of diplomacy as position and power. And a numbers and scouting (and in turn opponents scouting you) play a large role in when and where you will be attacked.

That is why I consider 2 or 3 Crones on Vine Duty if they are not needed in a desperate fashion, essential to having a quick reinforcement/Call of Wind/of the Wild beatdown force as well as a psychological gauging of numbers by your opponent.

[apoger]

>Hmmm, I won't agree with you on this. Warden may have lost their +3 to strength and attack in Doms 2, but I think air shielding and lightning protection would more than make up for this.

I am sure many will disagree with me on this, but in my opinion there are few sacred troops worth going out of your way for. They are expensive and slow to build. In order to justify their value I demand serious firepower or resiliency. So far the only sacred troops that I like are Hydra and Niefel Giants (and I'm not a fan of the themes with which they are attached).

If I can get some "bless effect" while designing my pretenders I certainly do it. However I do not design my pretenders to do blessing effects as their primary purpose (so far...).

The air-9 Virture would have impressed me more in Dom1, however Wrathful Skies has been toned down enough that air-9 no longer equals an instant army killer. Partial missile and lightning protection for Wardens does nothing for me as it leaves them as nothing more than very expensive HI. I'd rather have a Fire-9 Dragon. Such a dragon could go out and take provinces early, and thus expand the economy. Plus the Wardens would get an impressive bonus to hit and 8AP fire damage (extra attack and damage is a synergistic effect).

However I recommend the "astral manticore" for new players that ask for advice, since it's effectively a tutorial showing how to develop combat oriented gods. It allows for fast expansion. Provides good defence until the late game. And can devour many other pretenders in a melee fight (like the virtue or dragon from above). It's my standard suggestion since it's easy and strong.

[Keir Maxwell]

Originally posted by apoger:
in my opinion there are few sacred troops worth going out of your way for. They are expensive and slow to build. In order to justify their value I demand serious firepower or resiliency. So far the only sacred troops that I like are Hydra and Niefel Giants (and I'm not a fan of the themes with which they are attached).

I do think you have overlooked the obvious here in leaving out Serpent Dancers. Maybe I haven't played far enough into the game to have a clear view but from my testing C'tis is the best bless effects race I have used. Actually the tuned C'tis "Dancers of Death" is the best race I've used in Dom2 - but then I avoid the traditional power races.

Other decent sacred creatures for bless effects are Machakan HunterSpiders, Van, Tuatha, Celestial Soldiers plus awhole range of sacred mages who profit from reinvigoration, quickness or maybe a bit of unlife after death. I'm sure I've missed a few I've forgotten or haven't tested yet.

I know you are mourning the old Lava Warriors Alex but the new ones can be spectacular with earth9 and Abyssian mages love it to.

If I can get some "bless effect" while designing my pretenders I certainly do it. However I do not design my pretenders to do blessing effects as their primary purpose (so far...).

C'mon step outside you comfort zone Alex.

Bottom line for me is bless effects are new and we simply can't know, at this point, all the opportunities they can open up so I'm certainly going to keep trying and see what I come up with. I also have a bad feeling that Illwinter might adjust the turmoil/order/luck/misfortune in a way that wipes out dual bless effects races and many single ones so its a matter of making hay while the sun shines. I'm still bemused that so many people think you can take away 120 design points and imagine that borderline races will survive the experiance.

There is part of me that looks at a race like Pythium and says "If you are happy to give them everything why not just give more to the weak races strategies." Then again when you compare most races to Pythium its a matter of "race balence? Didn't realise there was any."

I haven't played Man main theme since I first got Dom1 so I don't have alot of useful to add other than agreeing with Nagot that the Earth Mother is a good earth bless effects god. The Cyclops is acutally the cheapest if you only want Earth9 and for all the criticism he gets is rather effective with prot 29.

Cheers

Keir

[Saber Cherry]

Originally posted by Keir Maxwell:
I know you are mourning the old Lava Warriors Alex but the new ones can be spectacular with earth9 and Abyssian mages love it to.

Um... have you used Abyssian mages in combat? I did in Doms I, and tried it in II, but they can't hit anything. Even at point blank range. Are you giving them all eyes of aiming or casting wind guide first? Or is this just theoretical?

[Nagot Gick Fel]

Originally posted by apoger:
I am sure many will disagree with me on this, but in my opinion there are few sacred troops worth going out of your way for.

Oh, I agree fully on this. But Man is special as it lacks good shock infantry bar Wardens, who sure looked much better in Doms 1, but for different reasons than one might think:

(1) in Doms 1 Wardens died in droves to crossbow fire, luckily your Crones could negate this weakness easily with Storm or the staff of the same name. An air-9 Virtue is as close as you can get to what you had then, with the added benefit that you can now play Wardens and LBs in the same army (in Doms 1 you had to choose LBs or Storm, you couldn't get both at the same time).

(2) in Doms 1 Wardens where "naturally" immune to lightning once you had Enchantment 4, thanks to Crones again. Thunder Ward is nerfed now, but again an air-9 Virtue is as close as what you had then.

The loss of attack and strength bonuses is minor when compared with these 2 issues. Actually in Doms 1 the all-powerful Storm made Wardens, Temple Guards and Emerald Guards look better than they really were.

They are expensive and slow to build.

That at least isn't different from Doms 1.

In order to justify their value I demand serious firepower or resiliency. So far the only sacred troops that I like are Hydra and Niefel Giants (and I'm not a fan of the themes with which they are attached).

Hmmm, these themes are fun, and the better part of Doms 2 is, IMO, trying to get the most out of the "weaker" themes. I haven't touched the standard Pythium once since I downloaded the demo, I'm not even sure I'd ever play it again in MP. At least it'll save me from Communicant-MM headache.

If I can get some "bless effect" while designing my pretenders I certainly do it. However I do not design my pretenders to do blessing effects as their primary purpose (so far...).

Neither do I. But again, Man lacks shock HI and picking the Virtue comes as close to Doms 1 Man as is possible. You can't always rely on LBs with a thin screen of Tower Guards to do the job, or soon someone will pick a Staff of Storms and use Mist to make the life of your bowmen miserable.

The air-9 Virture would have impressed me more in Dom1,

Sorry, in Doms 1 an air-9 Virtue wouldn't give you anything that you didn't already have. In Doms 2 it gives you what you had in Doms 1.

however Wrathful Skies has been toned down enough that air-9 no longer equals an instant army killer.

Agree, but it's besides the point.

Partial missile and lightning protection for Wardens does nothing for me as it leaves them as nothing more than very expensive HI.

Hmmm, you can get these protections with spells, but you'll have to do some research first. And you won't always have a Crone nearby. Also, what about sneaking Wardens in enemy territory, and you're intercepted by patrols? Since most patrol duty is left to missilemen, that air shielding will come handy. Much more handy than any other blessing bonus I'd say.

Anyway the high morale and +3 boost when blessed are still there. I think we'll agree that the nerfed Storm (and to a lesser extent the nerfed Thunder Ward) makes HI a bit less attractive than they were in Doms 1. But now imagine a battle between Wardens and Emerald Guards, with missile support on both sides (say, crossbows for Pythium). Gee, forget it, I guess you'll tell me you aren't using EGs anymore because of their cost and the lack of D1-like Storm, and the new legionaries are better?

I'd rather have a Fire-9 Dragon. Such a dragon could go out and take provinces early, and thus expand the economy.

Early you're likely to meet lots of independents with missile backup, including LI with javelins. Just the kind of indeps a small army of air-shielded Wardens adn LBs would shred to bits. OTOH with a fire-9 dragon you'll have to rely on Tower Guards with much larger numbers of LBs to do the same job, or accept Warden losses. With 3/turn only (because of the dragon's low dominion) you could as well forget building Wardens for some time.

Plus the Wardens would get an impressive bonus to hit and 8AP fire damage (extra attack and damage is a synergistic effect).

Fire-9 was actually my first idea, but then if you want full econ you have to pick a starting dominion of 3 at best, and therefore half as many Wardens as the Virtue can afford. Now if you can convince me that flaming Wardens can beat twice their numbers of air-shielded lightning-resistant ones, when you factor in the LB and Crone support on both sides... or is Arrow Fend good enough to more than negate Wind Guide?

However I recommend the "astral manticore" for new players that ask for advice, since it's effectively a tutorial showing how to develop combat oriented gods.

Sorry, I missed that Last part. I thought we were supposed to give hints to the OP, who picked a Druid - hardly a combat-oriented guy.

It allows for fast expansion. Provides good defence until the late game. And can devour many other pretenders in a melee fight (like the virtue or dragon from above).

No doubt he could, but that's an unfair comparison, Virtues are not supposed to duel units with morale 30 or higher.

[apoger]

>But Man is special as it lacks good shock infantry bar Wardens,

If I need shock value from Man I go with Knights.


>in Doms 1 Wardens died in droves to crossbow fire, luckily your Crones could negate this weakness easily with Storm or the staff of the same name. An air-9 Virtue is as close as you can get to what you had then, with the added benefit that you can now play Wardens and LBs in the same army


I have never had trouble with missiles and my wardens or tower guard. I always have my own longbow firing at enemy archers. It's enough to get me through without missile protection.

Storms was used to protect MAGES, not troops. When storms was up it would keep flyers from jumping the mages, and would prevent archers from picking them off. In dom2 storms has the same flyer stopping effect and we can no longer target mages with archers... so the use of storms really hasn't changed. Plus the staff o' storms is back to cons-4. I'm going to be holding one in every battle I can.


>in Doms 1 Wardens where "naturally" immune to lightning once you had Enchantment 4, thanks to Crones again. Thunder Ward is nerfed now, but again an air-9 Virtue is as close as what you had then.

I never had a problem using orb lightning around my wardens, and I would never use wrathful skies unless I had 100% protection, so nothings changed.


>You can't always rely on LBs with a thin screen of Tower Guards to do the job, or soon someone will pick a Staff of Storms and use Mist to make the life of your bowmen miserable.

I don't use a thin screen. They are the bulk of my army with the exception of the first few turns.

>Also, what about sneaking Wardens in enemy territory,

I don't.
They are too expensive to use for such work, plus they get caught sometimes (unacceptable).

When I "sneak attack" as Man is is by:

1- Call of the Wild
2- Call of the Wind
3- Faery Trod (in dom2)
4- Crones (Cloud Trapeze, then summoning air elementals)
5- A flying or teleporting pretender

My infantry is back with the army... where it belongs.


>I think we'll agree that the nerfed Storm (and to a lesser extent the nerfed Thunder Ward) makes HI a bit less attractive than they were in Doms 1.

Both HI and Storms... still good.


>Gee, forget it, I guess you'll tell me you aren't using EGs anymore because of their cost and the lack of D1-like Storm, and the new legionaries are better?

I have actually started to like the "Principe" troops that Pythum now has. But it has nothing to do with Storms.


>Early you're likely to meet lots of independents with missile backup, including LI with javelins. Just the kind of indeps a small army of air-shielded Wardens adn LBs would shred to bits. OTOH with a fire-9 dragon you'll have to rely on Tower Guards with much larger numbers of LBs to do the same job, or accept Warden losses. With 3/turn only (because of the dragon's low dominion) you could as well forget building Wardens for some time.


You should pratice with a fire-9 dragon. They need no support at all. It speeds up the province grabbing tremendously. Just learn what provinces to avoid.


>or is Arrow Fend good enough to more than negate Wind Guide?

Arrow Fend is great, and replaces much of the bless efffect you are pushing for (air shield 80).