Astral Magic worthless??

[Darryl]

Gandalf Parker in his infinte wisdom recently said:

In Dominions, if it looks like a killer strategy then look at it again carefully.
In Dominions, if it looks like a total waste then look at it again carefully.

Which seems to be the case in everything except one: Astral Magic. It seems to be widely accepted that taking any astral magic is an easy way to be a target. Of what, I'm not sure. Mind Duel or something like that. But it seems to be dangerous enough to warrant every experienced player I've seen post to suggest that it just isn't worth it.

Now I'm a newbie, and am still learning the basics. but what is so bad about Astral magic. Why is it dangerous? And do any experienced players ever take astral magic on purpose? Anyone take it in multiplayer? If not, this could be the first universally accepted "never do this" type thing in Dominions. At least everyone I've seen seems to say that.

Darryl

[Vger]

Hi,

Well, I'm a newb too, but have done a great deal of reading about D1 before playing D2.

Astral, if you're playing MP (which I haven't and won't) is an all or nothing thing playing versus other people because of the Magic Duel spell. If your pretender has any astral less than, well 9 or 10, I should think, then someone else who has good astral mages (R'lyeh, for example) can cast MD and bLast your pretender to mindless kindom come.

Against the computer, this isn't so much of a problem, though I have seen the CP do some interesting things in my first full game with Difficult level AIs. So I may not be as safe as I thought I was in SP.

Astral has some great and very powerful spells that you'll be hard put to do without at some point, for example, you need astral 3 to cast Dispel. And the first time Ermor or C'tis put up Burden of Time you'll be sorry you don't have SOMEONE with astral 3. But for MP, I would boost a mage or priest, not my pretender.

If you DON'T have any astral then you're not vulnerable to this at all. I'm sure a vet will come along and clean up my mess and give you more details, but that's the gist of it. I think.


Adios,
V'ger gone

[ January 06, 2004, 05:33: Message edited by: Vger ]

[apoger]

No, your description is good. Not much to "clean up".

Effectively astral magic is one of the most potent paths, however it has the pitfall that encounters with better astral mages can leave you dead.

It's powerful enough that it's worth using... just understand the gamble you're taking.

All players have three basic options:

1- Don't use astral magic. Ignore the whole situation.

2- Use mages with some astral magic. Enjoy it's power, but know that it's possible that clever enemies may be able to exploit this.

3- Use very potent astral mages and hope to trump other players astral magic.


There really is no best choice. Things depend entirely on the circumstances of the game, and the choices that the other players made.

[General Tacticus]

Remember, also, that mind duel is cast in combat. If you keep your pretender at home, he is safe (well, untill the enemy comes calling at your capital, but at this point you have other problems anyway).

Astral on the pretender is an issue for people that plan to use him as a SC (supercombattant). But nobody forces you to.

Either gamble on it or don't.

If you choose a nation that has astral magic, be prepared to deal with it and mark your opponents wisely and well. If at all possible, don't fight an astraly powerful nation if you're not one. Or wear them down with other tactics, players, or units to take away their advantage of killing or nulling your mages and supercombatants.

[Psitticine]

I play with Astral a lot. Its power and versatility are marvelous and, with all due respect, I really don't worry about Magic Duel very much at all. Yes, it has a chance of killing even strong Astral mages, and an even greater chance of killing weak ones, but a rain of crossbow bolts or a cadre of Eagle Warriors coming in from above are dangerous too. A good Smite spell is a killer as well, and has no risk for the caster.

In either MP or SP, I just haven't found Magic Duel to be coming even close to living up to its dreaded reputation. Since Astral has so many spells I really, really enjoy, it is my most common pick, and I've used it in a full range of strengths.

[Saber Cherry]

Astral is excellent, and not a risk at all, in my opinion, unless you have low astral on your pretender. Don't do that.

But national mages with astral aren't the negative many people claim. They can only be mind dueled and killed regularly by enemy astral mages with much higher astral. Those enemy mages are very expensive and still risk death... not a risk I'd want to take. Witch hunters are often mentioned as vulnerable... but who would risk an expensive astral-3 mage mind-dueling a 150 gold witch hunter?

-Cherry

[apoger]

>but who would risk an expensive astral-3 mage mind-dueling a 150 gold witch hunter?

Nobody... but you have to reverse that situation. If I have a bunch of Witch Hunters and I come up against a player fielding some very expensive/dangerous astral-3 mages wouldn't it be in my best interest to gamble on some duels?


Magic Duel is not an issue that you deal with all the time. It's more of an "Achilles’ heel" that gets exploited rarely, but when it happens it can be devastating.


When I play a nation that has astral-3 mages you can bet that as the game goes long, I am preparing a Magic Duel specialist. Eventually I get an astral-4 mage when a random skill comes in astral. Add on a Starshine Skullcap, Crystal Shield, Crystal Coin, Ring of Sorcery, and a level of empowerment... and I have an Astral-9 mage. Even if I face no astral opponents this is a potent mage. If I encounter an enemy army with a bunch of astral 2-3 mages... you can bet I'll be looking to engage with my astral-9. Teleport right to the front, and let the dueling begin! Of course this is not a common event, but I'm telling you straight up that games turn on such events when they happen.


Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying that players should avoid using astral magic. What I'm saying is that Magic Duel is a consideration when doing so.

[ioticus]

apoger said:
>but who would risk an expensive astral-3 mage mind-dueling a 150 gold witch hunter?

Nobody... but you have to reverse that situation. If I have a bunch of Witch Hunters and I come up against a player fielding some very expensive/dangerous astral-3 mages wouldn't it be in my best interest to gamble on some duels?


Magic Duel is not an issue that you deal with all the time. It's more of an "Achilles’ heel" that gets exploited rarely, but when it happens it can be devastating.


When I play a nation that has astral-3 mages you can bet that as the game goes long, I am preparing a Magic Duel specialist. Eventually I get an astral-4 mage when a random skill comes in astral. Add on a Starshine Skullcap, Crystal Shield, Crystal Coin, Ring of Sorcery, and a level of empowerment... and I have an Astral-9 mage. Even if I face no astral opponents this is a potent mage. If I encounter an enemy army with a bunch of astral 2-3 mages... you can bet I'll be looking to engage with my astral-9. Teleport right to the front, and let the dueling begin! Of course this is not a common event, but I'm telling you straight up that games turn on such events when they happen.


Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying that players should avoid using astral magic. What I'm saying is that Magic Duel is a consideration when doing so.

Isn't it true that magic items do not count for magic duels? Also, if you empower a mage does it count in a duel, or is only his original power counted?

[Cainehill]

Empowerment should count. Magic items, well - some people have reported possible bugs with a few of the magic items having an effect ( I think the staff that raises all mages astral level, for one ).