No one does it like the Bull...

[General Tacticus]

I once was playing Ulm, and Pythium had a white bull. Poor thing kept diing against my armies. Each time, it was the fatigue that did it, I think he had acquired a chest wound somewhere. Anyway, better give him a reinvigoration item, or don't ever attack large armies, because once he is tired he becomes a sitting hamburger...

[Wauthan]

It might seem really odd but the most successful combat pretender I made, so far, was a plain Ancient Kraken.

The thing just would not die. Since it didn't have any picks in magic I recklessly send it in to duke it out with independants and enemies alike. Indep set to 9 nonetheless. With whatever few units it could recruit in the province previous it expanded the empire faster than I could defend it. After a while I gave it an amulet of airbreathing and sent it onto dry land where it fared even better due to the lack of angry "teleporting" tritons.

Eventually it did die, going up against a cadre of heavy cavalery, but with so many priests around it jumped right back two turns later. With such a cheap pretender I could afford very good scales.

Never eat squid again!

[ywl]

Originally posted by Jasper:
Arcoscephale's Shedu is also similar.

Yeah. I missed that. It shows I don't play Arco often .

It's probably even more powerful with the ethereal, luck and invulnerability combo. Though you'd want a "Ring of Regeneration" to go with it and some higher Astral to prevent a quick kill from "Magic Duel". All these together might make him a bit too pricy to risk in frontline.

[NTJedi]

Originally posted by olaf73:
Anyway, what other combat pretenders are similar to, or better than the Great White Bull?

olaf [/QB]

The immortal pretenders can go into battle... die and not take any losses to their magic as long as their candle is in the province.
The bull is a strong monster but can only use miscelaneous items.
Also by mid and late game it's almost always better to keep your pretender hidden from the enemy/battles to stay away from the mages/items that will horror mark, curse, blind, cast nightmare or some other nasty attack.

[Jasper]

I agree, the Shedu's Astral makes him in practice too expensive, especially considering he can't use most items and so is only effective early on. Unfortunately his relatively low 9 protection also hambers him early, until you've researched at least Iron Skin. IMHO the Shedu is impotent and expensive.

Luck and Body Ethereal are nice, but those can be cast on you by another mage, or easily attained through items. Astral Shield is quite nice however (especially since Paralyzation is broken!), although I'm not sure whether Astral Weapon works with Trampling.

If the Shedu cost 100 and had Air instead of Astral, it might be ok. It would be much cheaper without the need to invest in high Astral, and stronger by adding access to Mist Form, Mirror Image, and Resist Lightning.

[onomastikon]

I'm only a newbie but I have had great success with the Earth Mother (or Great Mother? forget name). Particularly with Pangaia, where I almost always set to Restless Worshippers, which gets me faster nice Dominion in provinces not yet controlled by Me (= she even better in combat there), plus gives me more cannon fodder (Maneads from the Pan). I usually equip her with some reinvig items asap (boots of the messenger, girdle or might). She does quite well. Never tried the Bull, because I dont like his magic setup, but the Mother seems like an even better deal to me. Just my two Eurocents.

Edit: oh and if I remember rightly, the Bull doesnt have much magic, but he also doesnt have many item slots. It is nice to be able to put a shield on the Mother, and some armor and boots too. Or give her a Midget Masher, that is fun.

[ January 30, 2004, 09:49: Message edited by: onomastikon ]

[Chris Byler]

Originally posted by Jasper:
I agree, the Shedu's Astral makes him in practice too expensive, especially considering he can't use most items and so is only effective early on. Unfortunately his relatively low 9 protection also hambers him early, until you've researched at least Iron Skin. IMHO the Shedu is impotent and expensive.

Luck and Body Ethereal are nice, but those can be cast on you by another mage, or easily attained through items. Astral Shield is quite nice however (especially since Paralyzation is broken!), although I'm not sure whether Astral Weapon works with Trampling.

If the Shedu cost 100 and had Air instead of Astral, it might be ok. It would be much cheaper without the need to invest in high Astral, and stronger by adding access to Mist Form, Mirror Image, and Resist Lightning.

I'm curious - what item gives Ethereal to someone with no body slot?

Luck I agree on, but it isn't as important as etherealness, especially early game.

I don't think you need to invest in high Astral - most god SCs are primarily useful for early expansion, and don't want to take the field against players packing Paralyze, Curse, Horror Mark, Black Bow of Botulf, etc. Magic duel would be one more way of bringing down a Shedu with a "mere" 4 Astral (which is pretty cheap) - but you'd likely lose several mages doing it, unless you're Pythium.

Furthermore any astral god that does take the field will probably be leading a communion (especially for astral nations like Arco - it is definitely worth it to send a few mystics on communion slave to back up your God), which IIRC still counts in magic duels.

I think the Shedu could stand to cost a bit less or have higher base protection, but as he is he can take quite a few provinces by himself with no research, and then with a bit of Alteration he can take just about any independent.

Has anyone ever used Gifts from Heaven (Earth 3/Astral 1/Evo 5)? From the description it sounds like it could be quite nasty against heavy troops (150 damage?!, AOE 1, #effects 3) for a fatigue cost of 50-. A Shedu is probably paying no more than 25 - without communion - for a spell that can kill six Black Knights (let alone what that will do to supercombatants - few beings can survive 150 damage).

[Humer]

Originally posted by Chris Byler:
I'm curious - what item gives Ethereal to someone with no body slot?

Wraith Crown. Death-4, Con-6. Not early game item, though (40 gems)...

- Humer

[Jasper]

Originally posted by Chris Byler:
I don't think you need to invest in high Astral - most god SCs are primarily useful for early expansion, and don't want to take the field against players packing Paralyze, Curse, Horror Mark, Black Bow of Botulf, etc. Magic duel would be one more way of bringing down a Shedu with a "mere" 4 Astral (which is pretty cheap) - but you'd likely lose several mages doing it, unless you're Pythium.

IMHO Fighting Pretenders can be quite usefull later in the game, and in fact many pretenders are too vulnerable to use during expansion, but with some research and equipment can be fearsome.

Paralyze: Is broken, and I expect will be fixed.
Curse: You can survive being cursed.
Horror Mark: Is a rare and impotent threat.
Black Bow: Can be deflected, and can no longer target commanders anyway

Sure there's more risk later in the game, but you can also afford to lose your pretender more.

Then again, the Shedu isn't very usefull later in the game, so perhaps you're better off just taking Astral 3 and only using him for early expansion. Personally, I prefer to have my pretender usefull both early and late, and IMHO Arcoscephale really benefits from a high Astral pretender to protect Mystics from factions with stronger or more efficient Astral.

[Jasper]

Originally posted by Chris Byler:
Has anyone ever used Gifts from Heaven (Earth 3/Astral 1/Evo 5)? From the description it sounds like it could be quite nasty against heavy troops (150 damage?!, AOE 1, #effects 3) for a fatigue cost of 50-. A Shedu is probably paying no more than 25 - without communion - for a spell that can kill six Black Knights (let alone what that will do to supercombatants - few beings can survive 150 damage).

I've never gotten much millage out of Gifts from Heaven, as it's expensive and horribly inaccurate. Against small units it's overkill, and it's very difficult to get it to hit something big that the huge damage matters.

Perhaps if you boosted the mages precision a bunch it would be usefull, but I haven't seriously pursued that. A 2 earth 1 air Mystic leading a communion could work: equip an Aiming Eye, cast Aim, and have someone else cast Wind Guide; actually, I'm not sure all these bonuses stack... Plus, it's usefullness will depend greatly on whether GfH tends to target large monsters or not.

In the end I've always found the more traditional Astral evocations to be more effective, and have regretted the times I've used GfH.