Turmoil and Unrest

[Arryn]

Sometime back on this forum I saw someone (alas I forget who) state that Turmoil has no effect on increasing Unrest. Yet in the game I'm currently playing, in every province where my foe Ulm has spread dominion I have unrest. Ulm is Turmoil-1 and I am Order-2. In every case where I flip a province from Ulm's dom to mine, the unrest goes away. Otherwise, no amount of patrolling or taxes will make it go away. Ergo, can someone please explain why I'm getting unrest, when the only cause that I can see is Ulm's dominion (ie: Turmoil)?

[Targa]

Turmoil has no effect on increasing Unrest

I'd have to disagree with whoever said that then. In all the games I've played to date, I've never tipped the scale to +turmoil, and have never had an unrest problem. My current game, I have the scale at turmoil +1, and it's impossible to keep taxes at 100% w/o having unrest all the time. (that's not counting province defense, patrolling, etc...just "plain vanilla").

Turmoil has no effect on increasing unrest. That is how it worked in Dom 1, but it does not in Dom 2. There is more likelyhood of a chance of random event, which can produce unrest (especially if you don't take a high luck enviroment). All provinces even under Order 3 get unrest from time to time for no explainable reason other than sometimes there is unrest.

[Arryn]

Zen, it is most assuredly not a random event. It is every turn, and in every province that has Turmoil dominion, and only those provinces. I am pretty sure that Targa is right and you are not. He is having the same experience as am I, it seems.

I just did a 20 Turn Capital Test with Order 3 and Turmoil 3, the Order 3 Dominion actually got Unrest before the Tumoil 3 Dominion and it was minor. I don't see how Turmoil is producing unrest if for 20 turns it didn't in a capital, but I'll try it with non-capital provinces (If the Capital is hardcoded to get less unrest). I'll now go take two provinces each under Turmoil and Order 3, then play 20 turns.

If you care for the specifics, it's Luck 3 as well. So unless Luck has a negative "unrest" factor, I don't see it changing.

Alright the conclusion of the 20 turn test with 2 provinces each came up with the following conclusion.

Unrest doesn't ever just happen, it happens if the following happen:

An event that causes unrest (brigands etc)
You take control of a province by fighting or fighting occurs in a province you control. This produces a minor amount of unrest (~10-20 in my tests). I'm thinking that the larger the battle the more unrest?
You blood hunt or raise taxes, or have a special site that produces unrest/disease whatever.
Someone casts a spell that produces unrest in some way shape or form.


Try your own tests by getting at least 3 dominion, 3 Order one one nation, and 3 dominion and 3 Turmoil on a race (you may want to test with luck so you don't have brigand events delaying your test results). Set magic sites to 0 so there is no chance of having a random site cause unrest that you can't search out.

Don't test it with enemy AI or you will be the attack of scouting/spying/bards/blights/hurricanes etc.

Maybe you can come up with different results and prove me wrong.

Edit: I haven't tested overlying domain of enemy pretenders on provinces you control to see if unrest increases.

[ January 31, 2004, 02:34: Message edited by: Zen ]

[Targa]

Actually, I'm going to have to revise that statement. I just realized that Ermor has been casting global enchantments like crazy, and I've had to keep dispelling them, which would account for my provinces always having a small level of unrest. Also, I forgot to mention that lowering taxes did make the unrest go away (until Ermor cast another GE). I just did what Zen did...ie: I made a new game and tipped the scales to turmoil +3, and tipped the other scales to good things like productivity, etc. Captured 3 provinces, lowered taxes on the first round after capturing to eliminate unrest from battle, then played about 10 turns with 100% taxing and zero unrest in all provinces. So I'd have to say that in this test scenario, even having turmoil at +3 produced no unrest.

[Arryn]

Okay. So would either of you two kind gents then please explain what's going on in my game? (Please go back and reread my other Posts in this thread carefully.)

It's not hunting, I don't do that.

It's not a special site, it's many provinces and confined to only those with this particular enemy dom.

It's not taxes, they are at 100%.

It's not fighting. One of the affected provinces, for example, hasn't had any in over 20 turns, not even next door.

It's not an event, I can account for those, and they wouldn't affect so many provinces anyway. Unless there are events that can affect you that are hidden (unreported).

And Last, but not least, the unrest goes away if I remove the enemy dom.

Half the affected provinces have PD of 11+ and it makes no difference at all.

And I doubt it's enemy spell activity as it is very consistent and affects multiple provinces. Besides which, you get a message when someone hurts you. You just aren't told by whom.

So, we're back to my original question: what's causing this?

Well then since you asked so very nicely, there are a variety of answers none of which are more than likely going to answer your questions since I don't know every factor of increasing unrest.

1. An enemy is using a spy against you in some way on multiple provinces.

2. You haven't found all the sites and a few are causing Unrest. Have you Acashic Record cast on all these provinces?

3. Opposing dominion in provinces controlled by you creates unrest.

4. Stealth armies cause unrest (I don't know) and there are stealth armies running through your lands.

5. Global Enchantments are causing unrest.

6. You are not killing your unrest all the way. Unrest produces more unrest and scales upward if you leave it unchecked.


Try leaving the opponents dominion on your provinces, killing all the unrest by turning your tax to 0% until it's all gone, then turn it to 100% and see if it rises, if it rises in only places with opponents dominion, then you might have your answer. If it raises in other places, try casting an Acashic Record on it to see if there are any stealth sites causing unrest, or send over a crew to patrol and try to catch any spies/bards.

Besides that, you'll have to figure it out. I've had unrest problems in my domains before, but never to the extent you apparently have.

[Arryn]

Originally posted by Zen:
Well then since you asked so very nicely, there are a variety of answers none of which are more than likely going to answer your questions since I don't know every factor of increasing unrest.

Thanks.

1. An enemy is using a spy against you in some way on multiple provinces.

Highly improbable. And doesn't explain why it matches only provinces with this particular enemy dom.

2. You haven't found all the sites and a few are causing Unrest. Have you Acashic Record cast on all these provinces?

No. But 10+ provinces, most of which are adjacent to each other? Statistically very improbable.

3. Opposing dominion in provinces controlled by you creates unrest.

It does? I haven't seen that in my other games. I know in my R'lyeh game I took a Pythium province that had -9 dom, patrolled all the unrest out of it, and it has stayed at zero unrest ever since, despite the dom still being in Pythium's favor many turns later.

4. Stealth armies cause unrest (I don't know) and there are stealth armies running through your lands.

My neighbors in this game (thus far) are Ulm, Jot, and R'lyeh, and AFAIK none of those have stealth troops other than scouts. Ulm, the enemy with the turmoil dom, is down to a single province (I took his capital 2 turns ago).

5. Global Enchantments are causing unrest.

Only Gift of Health is active.

6. You are not killing your unrest all the way. Unrest produces more unrest and scales upward if you leave it unchecked.

I take note of the unrest before hosting, host, and then read the Messages and check the provinces. I'm killing all the unrest and it pops back up again, instantly.

Try leaving the opponents dominion on your provinces, killing all the unrest by turning your tax to 0% until it's all gone, then turn it to 100% and see if it rises, if it rises in only places with opponents dominion, then you might have your answer.

I'd already done this before I started the thread. But the issue is that it's only this opponent's dominion. Which leads me back to the Turmoil/Unrest relationship, which I think you've sort of proved isn't the case. It's crazy. It acts in my game as if there is a link, yet when you test for it you don't see one ...

Does Ulm have an unrest-causing dominion? Special unit? Something?

Oh, and thanks for all the time you've spent on this.