Caelum questions, both themes.

[Norfleet]

Originally posted by Chazar:

quote:

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Originally posted by Norfleet:
If using a Nataraja SC, be warned that the Nataraja is not immune to the effects of your cold-3 dominion and will suffer large fatigue penalties when fighting in it, unless given a cold resistance item.

Ahem, I agreed with you there before, but then considering again, a high seraph can forge a "Ring of Frost" already on the second turn (provided that you dont use the Raptor theme). So the only drawback here is the lost misc-item slot, or did I miss something else?

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Well, it *IS* the loss of your ONLY misc slot. There are other alternatives, though. And my intent wasn't to say that you SHOULDN'T use the Nataraja because of this, so much that you should be aware of the effect: It's particularly pronounced on the Nataraja, since he already comes with a rather poor base fatigue rating of 3. +2 for severe cold will turn it into an absolutely awful 5, so nose-down-in-the-dirt is very likely occurrence unless this is taken into account. The Virtue will be similarly affected, but her lighter base encumberance of 1 will mean that even a severe-cold penalized virtue will still have the endurance of an unaffected Nataraja, and she has two misc slots. The Blue Dragon isn't affected, but his encumberance is pretty bad anyway.

[fahdiz]

Originally posted by Chazar:
- As for RotR: I agree that Caelum should have a theme where blessing might be of more use. After all, they are angel-like beings anyway, so an entirely divine-based theme woulde be cool. And there's a lot to trade of: the cool mages, making mammoths unique to the captial, etc. But maybe I just dont know enough about the other nations.

I got the feeling that RotR was meant to give caelum a tainted, evil touch, but I think they are not evil enough...

I don't think they're supposed to be necessarily evil as much as they are desperate and rebellious.

[fahdiz]

Originally posted by Zen:
If I had to do what I say (Which is of course the hardest way to do it I'd more than likely make RotR a complete overhaul.

Change the Preference to Cold 1 or None (Depending on the points).

Remove Wingless, Remove Mammoths, Remove Spire Horn Warriors (Replaced with Raptors), Make Raven Guard Sacred. New unit Gryphon. Move one Air to Random on the Harab Elder and give him Holy 3. Starting Spell = Blight.

That would play much differently. With the removal of Cold preference but keeping the units Cold Resistance, you could take Cold if you wish; but you lose the 'free points' and makes you play quite a bit differently.

Those are just some things I was thinking for my own modifications; but hardly a general consensus.

Would you give them Gryphon Riders like the Garnet Amazons have, or would it be just a riderless Gryphon with slightly different stats (like cold resistance, for one)?

Effectively this would turn RotR into a "groundless" nation, as Wingless + Mammoth is basically all Caelum has as far as ground troops, and RotR doesn't even get Temple Guards. Is it your intent that RotR *must* rely on independents and summons for ground forces? This would make early expansion, especially against strong indies, very difficult.

Certainly mages with Death (Harabs) give you quick and easy battlefield ground troops - but they don't pack the punch of Mammoths in any way, shape or form. Would the Gryphon replace the functionality of the Mammoth, in your mind?

A base Gryphon. Not a rider. He is supposed to replace the Mammoth, similiar cost

code:

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125 Gold, XX Resources



Size 4

Hp  48   Str 21

Pro 10   Att 13

Mor 10   Def 13

MR  10   Pre 5

Enc 4    Mv 2/16



Cold Resistance 100

Animal

Flying



Claw, Bite

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It would have to be balanced of course. But something that takes the place of a semi-decent unit. Could even lower the Morale more if it needed in order to simulate the low morale of the Mammoth, but flying units generally have a much greater chance to rout regardless. Have him eat horses would be fine too, +5 Supply Usage

[ March 05, 2004, 01:21: Message edited by: Zen ]

[fahdiz]

I see...so in this scenario, reanimated Skeletons/Soulless/etc. (either battlefield summons or ritual reanimations) + Gryphons = RotR's Version of Wingless + Mammoth, yes?

That would certainly force a different style of play. Having to rely on flying troops for more than just raiding, harrassment, and commander-killing would make things difficult...although the fact that you could play a bless strategy towards Raven Guards might help make up for some of the difference.

[ March 05, 2004, 01:30: Message edited by: fahdiz ]

More or less. Just depends. Since the cost of the Harab Elder is so high, you couldn't be building much in the way of both Gryphons and Harab Elders.

You would have to rely on Storm Guards/Raven Guards + Gryphons in order to compete. The slower movement of the Gryphon wouldn't allow it quite the movement of most of Caelum troops (Letting them jump *everywhere*).

It would also force the smart use of Storm. You don't have nearly the battle power as base Caelum, since you don't have Quickness with your Orb Lighting, but lets you have a chance to get a 3rd Death (for say Terror) or a second Earth to be able to forge Earth Boots then Dwarven Hammer (something that Base Caelum has no chance for).

It is hard to fill the gap of the mammoths, as they are an incredible unit and very cost effective for use against indies and high amounts of elite units from opponents.

I'd have to be tested, but it certainly would make you think differently from base Caelum, but have the options where it is not considered 'totally useless'.

[fahdiz]

Well, if you got a third Death on one of your Harab Elders you could also just scrounge up some Behemoths...and that's a heck of a Mammoth replacement.

[Arryn]

Originally posted by fahdiz:
Well, if you got a third Death on one of your Harab Elders

Which is easily done with a Skull Staff.

[Norfleet]

Originally posted by Zen:
flying units generally have a much greater chance to rout regardless. Have him eat horses would be fine too, +5 Supply Usage

I haven't noticed that flying units have a tendency to rout that's greatly above that of ground units, although they are much more SUCCESSFUL at routing, as they simply disappear off the field: Perhaps the routing tendency is contributed due to the fact that many fliers are rather fragile and easily damaged, and you don't mass them quite as much because they're larger and more expensive units. Of course, it's also possible to deploy fliers in much larger squads without running into blockage problems, which helps to offset this. I haven't noticed any particularly extreme tendency of fliers to rout. It's far worse with Jotuns, they rout really easily due to a combination of all of the above.

[Arryn]

Originally posted by Norfleet:
It's far worse with Jotuns, they rout really easily due to a combination of all of the above.

I disagree (of course). Jotuns have better-than-average morale and tend to have decent staying power, as long as they're not massively swarmed, which would be a problem for any nation anyway.