OT: SPYWARE/TROJAN and Off Topic! - Page 8

Gandalf Parker · #71 April 8th, 2004, 05:50 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Evil Dave:

quote:
Originally posted by Gandalf Parker:
Illwinter has been following this thread but they are headed out of town and wont be back till about Monday. The impression I get is that the reaction to this has been kindof a surprise.

Which I find both surprising and not surprising.

OT1H, I'm not surprised, cause many programmers/software designers are clueless about security and privacy matters. Or they figure nobody will notice or care (which is part of the cluelessness ).

I wouldnt word it as clueless. Its a common enough thing and they dont strike me as people who would have been all that concerned when it was done by other programs on their machine. Unless you hang in certain newsGroups you dont tend to notice. In the comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.strategic newsgroup where Dom2 gets alot of coverage, such subjects dont get alot of discussion. Nor the rpg, action, flight-sim, war-history, etc etc.

On the other hand in the hacker Groups which I haunt then it does. Just as it does in cracker and warez Groups. Unless someone spends some time there it wouldnt seem like a major topic.

Quote:

I sympathize with both sides of this discussion. Illwinter doesn't want to get ripped off (and we don't want them to!). Private individuals don't want to be spied on. Coming up with things that do both is hard.

I understand hating spyware, and being concerned about it. When this was first brought up I was very interested in what Illwinters comments would be. But now that they have answered I dont consider this spyware. Every programmer would like to have the program send info home on its useage and problems (Ive been there) but I get the impression that Illwinter purposely didnt do that. All this does is a key check of its own software. I have trouble considering that to be in the Category of "spying".

[ April 08, 2004, 16:52: Message edited by: Gandalf Parker ]

Peter Ebbesen · #72 April 8th, 2004, 06:07 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Gandalf Parker:
All this does is a key check of its own software. I have trouble considering that to be in the Category of "spying".

It is taking over the user's hardware for purposes of reporting home without the Users knowledge or consent. No matter how miniscule the amount of data sent home, that is spying.

Not malicious spying, perhaps, but spying nevertheless.

The fact that a lot of other programs also do it without notifiying the user is not an excuse.... Though it may be an explanation.

[ April 08, 2004, 17:07: Message edited by: Peter Ebbesen ]

Gandalf Parker · #73 April 8th, 2004, 06:17 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Peter Ebbesen:

quote:
Originally posted by Gandalf Parker:
All this does is a key check of its own software. I have trouble considering that to be in the Category of "spying".

It is taking over the user's hardware for purposes of reporting home without the Users knowledge or consent. No matter how miniscule the amount of data sent home, that is spying.

No I cant go with that definition. Sounds good enough but Ive never seen spyware defined that way except in some extreme Groups.

In the usenet newsGroups we usually use the definitions given by Wikipedia, or in the hacker newsGroups the definitions given in the Jargon File, as being "official" for purposes of discussion.
Here are both....
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spyware
http://www.alt-hacker.org/~noadle/ja...S/spyware.html

I have checked and I see no evidence that anything is being sent which isnt already Illwinters. No snooping info.

[ April 08, 2004, 17:20: Message edited by: Gandalf Parker ]

Evil Dave · #74 April 8th, 2004, 06:23 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Gandalf Parker:
Every programmer would like to have the program send info home on its useage and problems (Ive been there) but I get the impression that Illwinter purposely didnt do that. All this does is a key check of its own software. I have trouble considering that to be in the Category of "spying".

Yeah, I phrased that badly. I didn't mean to imply that key checking was spying -- it was more a generic concern.

'Course, they also get an IP address, which may be of more concern to some people. For example, I have a vanity domain, and my Dom2 machine is in that domain. It wouldn't be hard to imagine Bad Guys (not Illwinter) could take that IP address, notice that it didn't belong to an ISP, conclude that it was private, and decide to hassle the owner listed in the whois databases, which gets them not only a name, but a mailing address and phone number. Just what spammers and marketroids want -- a real name, address, and some demographic info: plays computer games (subtype strategy), has a vanity domain; probably a geek.

But I don't usually worry about that sorta thing.

Keeping track of usage is another issue, at least in some contexts. My employers worry about that kind of thing, cause it could reveal information useful to our competitors. I kinda doubt I'd care, but I'm not sure.

Tim Brooks · #75 April 8th, 2004, 06:59 PM

Hi All:

Deep breaths. We aren't and Illwinter isn't spying on you. Shrapnel Games does not keep track of CD keys by individual buying the game. Hell, we sell around 25% through distribution, so we couldn't do this - at least on those 25%. Obviously some of you think we have more time on our hands than we actually do.

Shrapnel Games was unaware that this was happening, and there should be a request to connect or at least a disclaimer that this is going to happen. This will be corrected in the coming weeks. In the meantime, if it upsets you as is, don't download and install the patch. Wait until we remedy the problem.

I apologize for any inconvenience or concern this has caused. I think most of us know that Illwinter's intentions are only to protect their intellectual property rights. With popular games being priated at a rate of 5x to 10x sales volume, you can see the concern is justified.

Happy Gaming!