Vampire Queen mod

[Graeme Dice]

Originally posted by SelfishGene:
Another giant problem is life drain that early in the game. Once successful attack replenishes her fatigue, which is just as if not more important than the life siphoned off.

The fatigue replenishment isn't important at all to a 0 encumbrance unit unless you are dealing with lots of opponents with air or astral magic.

And maybe change Life Drain globally to not siphon or remove as much fatigue.

This would harm all the non-undead units a huge amount more than the undead ones.

Edit: and change Immortality to not work if unit is fatigued out (100+).

Including the Liches? That would make them utterly useless as they will always be fatigued as spellcasters. I don't see why reforming their bodies automatically should have anything to do with whether they are conscious or not.

[SelfishGene]

Originally posted by Graeme Dice:
The fatigue replenishment isn't important at all to a 0 encumbrance unit unless you are dealing with lots of opponents with air or astral magic.

....

This would harm all the non-undead units a huge amount more than the undead ones.

...

Including the Liches? That would make them utterly useless as they will always be fatigued as spellcasters. I don't see why reforming their bodies automatically should have anything to do with whether they are conscious or not.

Hmm probably right, i added that suggestion without thinking it through as much at the end of the post. I also forgot the VQ was a 0 encumberance unit. However, fatigue does degrade a units defense and makes it easier to hit, and a VQ does have to accumulate some fatigue to cast her support magic. It might only help 10%, but it would help if that starting fatigue stayed with her longer. But your right about the immortality.

An ideal solution might be to change the Undead attribute into a unique Vampire attribute. That way you could easily add certain balancing weaknesses. Vampires are certainly undead but i think you could make a case that they are sufficiently different in the fiction to merit their own catagory. After all you don't have to die to become a vampire, or at least 'death' has some different meaning than death for something like an undead zombie.

[Kel]

[quote]Originally posted by SelfishGene:

Originally posted by Graeme Dice:
[qb]After all you don't have to die to become a vampire, or at least 'death' has some different meaning than death for something like an undead zombie.

In a sense, this already exists, though it isn't specific to just vampires. There are undead, such as VQ, and then there are mindless undead, such as souless, skellies, etc. However, a lot of anti-SC spells that make use of this distinction, like soul slay and paralyze(which work vs. undead, just not mindless units), are MR based and thus, not terribly effective against even an economy pretender.

Not saying they should, necessarily, since it would make other SC pretenders worse. Of course, with immortality, I don't think it would be imbalanced...heck, instead of all teh complicated options, maybe all the VQ needs is an innately low MR

- Kel

[Taqwus]

Dropping the immunity that undead have to Vengeance of the Dead might also help. Let mindless commanders be immune -- without a mind, it's probably hard to dream -- but those with minds, sure. Unless the idea is that undead don't sleep and therefore don't dream?

[E. Albright]

Originally posted by Cohen:
I'd remove Immortality first of all. Vampires can be killed.

Um. This depends a lot on just what mythology one uses as one's point of reference. I've ran into some (Middle Eastern? It's been a while and I'm not sure) tales speaking of a critter which wasn't frightfully powerful whilst alive (and not REALLY dead, and also capable of seeing daylight, an' some other "non-standard" stuff), but to kill it (and keep it dead) one would have to decapitate it, burn the head and body seprately, and scatter the respective ashes in such a way that ne'er the twain would meet. Or go with (Russian?) ones that posit a more lichy vampire, who would be physically strong, and when killed (in whatever unexceptional manner one chose), would need to be burnt... but when ya tried to burn it, a host of vermin (rats, newts, snakes, worms, etc.) would issue forth from the body with no goal but escape. And if one solitary lil' critter got away, well, all that hard work killin' an' burnin' yer vamp would go up in smoke...

[Edit: oh, and the bit about seperating heads and bodies (lest death not be fatal) pops up in some of the European vampire myths, too.]

[ April 20, 2004, 16:50: Message edited by: E. Albright ]

[mivayan]

The Fly is very useful, but I'd change it ... Vampires fly as bats, so it would be nice if this flying movement wouldn't allow to attack cause it's assumed the Vampire is in his bat form ... well he could change aspect at will ... but we've to limit it.

Perhaps remove the flying ability and have it shapechange into a vampiric bat? The bat would be immortal, flying, head+misc+misc slots and have harpy-like stats.

But to get it consistent you would have to do the same for other vampires - shapechanging non-commanders might not work too well.

Removing regen would probably make the vq rack up a LOT of afflictions with the low base hp, but they go away quick. So why not?

[ April 20, 2004, 21:47: Message edited by: mivayan ]

[Jondifool]

Originally posted by Endoperez:
What makes vampires ethereal in the first place?

If it is a cloak (someone mentioned something about vampires and cloaks, thanks for him!), giving the Queen body armor would take the etherealness away. Make any weapon take away her life-draining attack, and take away one of her miscellanous item slots. She can't drain the blood if she whacks her enemies down with a sword, and surely some of those abilities come from magical amulets...

thats close to my take on it also. But I think that when modding for balance purpose its simple the matter of making the smallest change possible there solve the problem! (and not creating any new).
The problem is not that she can aniliate entire armys, thats ok, someone has to be able to do it! The problem is that some races don't have a counter to the SC Version of her, on a battlefield.

And with that I see 2 points lined out.

Either the elemental army is to strong for her, or her cost of having new magic path is to small.

Well taking away her armour sloth, or linking the etherealness to not wearing an armour would be a minor change, but with big impact.
Because how does that relate to other ethereal pretenders being able to wear armours? (well maybe write a story that she is to selfobsessed to wear an armour ...)

Changing the cost of magic path sounds elegant, but that actual just disallow her to be played as a rainbow pretender. Besides that I dont know if a change of the cost of new magic paths would give all nations a battle change against her. would she just be buffed a little less and still be unkillable? Bringing me back to let her be without a armour sloth (if thats enough)!

[Vicious Love]

Originally posted by Jondifool:
Changing the cost of magic path sounds elegant, but that actual just disallow her to be played as a rainbow pretender. Besides that I dont know if a change of the cost of new magic paths would give all nations a battle change against her. would she just be buffed a little less and still be unkillable? Bringing me back to let her be without a armour sloth (if thats enough)!

Couldn't possibly disagree more. Soul Vortex+basic life drain attack+mad combat skillz and plenty of item slots makes for a truly spectacular SC, but one not nearly as powerful as a Fire Shielded, mistformed, Mirror Imaged, Invulnerable(If you feel like giving her a robe rather than heavy armor to go with her 0 encumbrance), Quickened, Breath of Wintery and, above all, Phoenix Pyred VQ.
Mind you, Soul Vortex, Phoenix Pyre(And other fire 2 or fire 1 spells), 0 encumbrance and a life drain attack still make for some spectacular bang for nearly any conceivable buck, but there are ways to get around such an SC's inexhaustible fatigue. I suspect raising the cost of new paths for the VQ, and probably raising her base cost a bit, too, would resolve this issue nicely.

[tinkthank]

I'm also unburying this thread from page 2 because I just had a tiny idea.

Comment1: In a current MP game I did very well against an enemy VQ in at least one battle early game (she had no items) with nothing but elephants (those merc ones). Trample seems to be very nice, and there is no defense against it except etheralness, unless I am mistaken.
Comment2: Wont any undead units be really good against a VQ since she cant drain them?
Together with comment1: Behemoths would do the trick nicely.
(Just as a counter; VQ still is a good indy-conquerer.)

Question: Would anybody find it out of theme to remove her Etheralness? I thought vampires should be staked through the heart etc., never pictured them as etheral. People found that etheralness was one of her big strengths when paired with her other abilities (not that it couldnt be added with a Robe of Shadows or Body Etheral).

Suggestion: Ditch the etheralness, jack the price to 140, (Reduce Magic Resistance to 16 (I know that is bizarre)??), leave everything else alone. (Seems as a master of magic she shouldn't have to pay more than 50 at the most for new spell paths, and it seems she *should* be a master of magic.)


Well dunno just my newbie two cents.

[Pocus]

trampling is based on defence IIRC (base attack 10 vs the defence of the target)