Humanoid Pretenders are too expensive

[Cainehill]

Originally posted by rabelais:
The one RB that isn't overpriced is the aquatic archmage for atlantis and the squiddies.

0 points, starts with 1 water.

I'd suggest that Caelum's Seraphine (65 points, but starts with flight, 1 air magic, and cold immunity) isn't overpriced either - but it should serve to show how ridiculously overpriced some others are. (I may be putting too much value on flight, but I don't think so.)

And the Jotun's Skratti and Abyssia's Great Warlock (both now missing in action in 2.11) were also worth their cost, as I recall.

[PvK]

Originally posted by IKerensky:
Well, I am just a newbie and all that but, even if Rainbow are great and all thus... what actually is there advantage against a nation SC or Bless Pretender that have access to an Astral national mage or hero to Acashic to his leisure...

A few are:

* Being able to do so without spending all those astral gems.

* Being able to do so much earlier than other nations, for a magical snowball effect.

* Being able to use a very wide variety of spells, summons and items, use them together, etc.

* Being able to get a bigger head start on research.

I personnaly have an hard time playing RB as I tend to keep them with their researching ubberness at home then I really have trouble having them scout the countryard meaning I am going to lose 20+ RP for the "possibility" of finding some site I could eventually find later on with spells.

Rainbow pretenders make very good researchers, but there are usually better things for them to do (that can't be done by purchasable units, perhaps with items), except maybe during the first few turns.

PvK

[Kel]

Originally posted by Zen:

I mean, is everyone overlooking the tremendous advantage of gem income if they are able to Last long enough to use it?

Given that an SC pretender means more provinces to search and more income to build mages to search with, it's hard to see, losing the ability for a single pretender to run around searching seems to be, at best, an even trade off and, at worse, totally inefficient. (Note this is why I made the suggestion of letting them auto-search a province without spending a turn on it)

Originally posted by Zen:
The advantage in forging and rituals is significant mid-late game.

I am sure this depends, somewhat, on the SC but I think its not hard to build an SC that gives you the advantages of the forging and the rituals that your nation doesn't normally provide while still being an effective SC. I like to use a 4-5/4 N/E Nat, for example, playing Arco. With natural mages covering gaps, that leaves only D/B paths weak. I realize that arco lets me use Nat with less fear of afflictions so take the VQ, so much under scrutiny now, which is half rainbow in addition to being an effective SC. Maybe for a nation that has both poor natural mages and no access to effective rainbow SC's, like the VQ, AND is playing in a game with conducive settings/map, could fully benefit from an RB pretender.

Don't get me wrong, I don't want everyone playing rainbow pretenders either I don't think there is a lot of danger in that right now, though, unless we truly over-compensate.

- Kel

Originally posted by Kel:
Given that an SC pretender means more provinces to search and more income to build mages to search with, it's hard to see, losing the ability for a single pretender to run around searching seems to be, at best, an even trade off and, at worse, totally inefficient. (Note this is why I made the suggestion of letting them auto-search a province without spending a turn on it)

Where is the potential to be afflicted and die and lose magic in site searching? Do you have to wait for items/magic levels to site search? What kind of versitility of effects do you get from site searching? (I'll answer this one for you, gold, units, fortresses, temples, gems and magic bonuses).

I like to use a 4-5/4 N/E Nat, for example, playing Arco. With natural mages covering gaps, that leaves only D/B paths weak. I realize that arco lets me use Nat with less fear of afflictions so take the VQ, so much under scrutiny now, which is half rainbow in addition to being an effective SC. Maybe for a nation that has both poor natural mages and no access to effective rainbow SC's, like the VQ, AND is playing in a game with conducive settings/map, could fully benefit from an RB pretender.

That is alot of points for a "SC". Take a VQ with alot of paths and play Ermor a gem only income and explain to me how much of a decision it is to search provinces or use your SC. And at what point in time do you make those decisions.

Don't get me wrong, I don't want everyone playing rainbow pretenders either I don't think there is a lot of danger in that right now, though, unless we truly over-compensate.

- Kel

I don't think there is danger in it either. But it is because you want to make rainbows more attractive with the human pretenders that is the problem.

Ask yourself this question. "If I chose a Human Pretender right now, what would I do with it?" Now apply the changes you mentioned. Does this change the answer to that question? I don't think so. I would rather see using each pretender for a different type of role rather than making a whole slew of pretenders good at just one thing and one thing only. Sure, make a few like that. Archmage, Sage. Those should be Rainbows, but Frost Father? Druid? Why should they be regulated to Rainbow status. I would rather have some of them be useful for other things as well.

[ May 04, 2004, 00:17: Message edited by: Zen ]

[PDF]

Originally posted by PvK:
Many of the human pretenders have 10-point path costs. Since they also cost significantly fewer points, that is already like giving them the option of being rainbow pretenders.

I haven't heard anything convincing yet that the immortals or non-humans are better than their point costs. For supercombatant pretenders, well, it would be unnatural if it were otherwise.

PvK

That ain't true : a RB with weak dominion cost nearly AS MUCH as a magic-competent SC chassis or Bless-effect path-9 pretender. He is significantly weaker though...
Example :
Druid F2 A2 E2 S3 D2 N2, dom 4, 10 hp, puny stats, that guy gets "bonus" Vine stuff : 260 points !

Son of Niefel W4 any-4 dom 5, 90 hp, str 28 etc... This one gets a free Winter Wolf each turn, without even using the turn to do so : 240 points !!!!
Moloch Fire-9 dom 5, 55 hp, Fear, Flying, Fire resistant : 264 points !!

Where's the problem ? I didn't even compare to a VQ or GK

[SelfishGene]

Although there are plenty of good ideas on how to improve human pretenders, and believing most of them would work, i wouldn't want to raise a Humans initial dominion. True, it would help save some points (i think 4 is minimum, but i could see 3 if you took negative scales for a super-4 rainbow), but really its for thematic reasons, and id hate to ruin the games charm with too much +/- balancing irregardless of the storyline.

After all, a decrepit wizard with 6-inch nails secluded in his dusty study, jealously pouring over the Necronomicon, doesn't give off the same Aura of divine power as would a 50' tall naked woman with breasts the size of cars.

[Kel]

Originally posted by Zen:
Where is the potential to be afflicted and die and lose magic in site searching?

With a humanoid RB ? I don't know, how often does a seeking arrow kill ?

Do you have to wait for items/magic levels to site search?

No, you have to wait for provinces which will come slower without an SC.

That is alot of points for a "SC". Take a VQ with alot of paths and play Ermor a gem only income and explain to me how much of a decision it is to search provinces or use your SC. And at what point in time do you make those decisions.

Having the option to either site search or do combat isn't a downside, it's an upside! With my Nat, who is cheaper than a full RB, I site search all the time. Oh, I don't send him out to site search specifically but while he isn't searching in all the paths, he makes up for it by already being in provinces, doing his SC duties.

With an RB, you have to move to a province abd site search. With an SC, you are already in a searchable province. On top of that, since you are talking about not waiting for items, your RB won't even be flying/survival'd so your movement is hampered.

2 turns with an SC = 1 province and 1 search.
2 turns with an RB = 1 friendly move and 1 search.

I don't think there is danger in it either. But it is because you want to make rainbows more attractive with the human pretenders that is the problem.

Actually, it wasn't really my crusade, I was just coming up with some ideas for what others saw as a problem. Then I saw something I felt needed some counter-points and should probably have just kept my mouth shut, eh ? Oh well, I am in it now.

Ask yourself this question. "If I chose a Human Pretender right now, what would I do with it?" Now apply the changes you mentioned. Does this change the answer to that question? I don't think so.

That's a fair way to approach it. If you applied both of the first two changes (I think they were auto search and search neighbors at half strength), I would use her for research at first and then definitely send her out to do site searches. I might wait until I forged some winged boots and some sort of protection from random remote attacks but then again, I might not, I might just send her out and send someone to catch up with her to deliver them.

I would rather see using each pretender for a different type of role rather than making a whole slew of pretenders good at just one thing and one thing only. Sure, make a few like that. Archmage, Sage. Those should be Rainbows, but Frost Father? Druid? Why should they be regulated to Rainbow status. I would rather have some of them be useful for other things as well.

Fair enough, I can agree with that!

I still don't really like discounted bonuses on magic paths because I think it will be hard to balance it so that 1 humanoid pretender isn't always best for certain nations. You might be able to use some of the paths (like construction which tends to be researched anyway). I would also be afraid of giving more power to rush strategies, based around a single spell.

Coming up with other ideas (or using some of the ones listed) would add variety, though, certainly.

- Kel

Note, another idea that occurs...could have some of them affect local scales . Druid, for example, causing growth-3 in his province, growth-1 in neighboring provinces ? Or better, maybe a 3 scale shift so you can't abuse it by taking death-3. Hey, Frost Father, go sit in that castle next to Abysia's front lines, please. Etc.

[ May 04, 2004, 01:23: Message edited by: Kel ]

[PDF]

As a player preferring to play RBs from personal taste, I'm more and more reluctant to use them, because their so-called "advantages" end up being very much ineffective...
The high RP is an initial advantage, but doesn't compete with the initial advantages of SC in conquering indies;
The site search is slow and a 6+ path RBs hasn't a so big advantage over a 2 or 3 paths pretender + a couple national mages (except for Ulm, granted )
The "rainbowness" isn't that useful in casting or forging, because you have a *weak* level in all paths, and for the non-national paths you've to have the RB forges himself boosting items... For the other you are not (and often less ...) powerful than the national mages so they can do the work themselves !
On the downside, having 10 hp makes a pretender very fragile, be it to seeking arrow, early disease (never caught that on the initial search runs on turn 10 ? ), assassins etc...

I don't even think the human mages can be made to compete with VQ, Moloch etc : they should have "useful" and colourful/unique abilities, to make them fun to play.
But mainly, gameplay-wise, they should be meant to allow players to have a CHEAP pretender and spend points on dominion, scales and castle.

So they need to be significantly cheaper : somthing like 0-20 points, dominion 2, and starting with either 2 or 3 level-1 or 2 paths, plus a nice ability for each "chassis".
In the end you'll have more or less the same guys, but costing some 80 points less, enough for 2 scales tips or a nice castle (Wiz Tower being appropriate )

[Cainehill]

Maybe scratch or at least redo all the current humanoid pretenders, to give them some abilities that might be attractive throughout the game.

Example of a touchup job: The Great Druid might get a 10% bonus to all nature conjurations, possibly forging nature items as well. Then he might be viable - saving 10% of the gems on big summonings is valuable throughout the game.

Likewise the Great Alchemist - let him transmute one type of gem to another at a 3 for 2 ratio. All of a sudden, he might be useful for Ulm, because any unwanted death, air, etc, gems could be more efficiently transformed into fire and earth.

The Great Sage: Presumably he might better direct the studies of _all_ his researchers, so each in his dominion gets +1 research ability, regardless of scales. Useful throughout the game, possibly even for Ulm or other Drain setups.

A new humanoid: Summoner. 20% bonus on all summoning spells (or possibly, raise his effective level by 1 for all summonings, allowing him to cast spells he otherwise couldn't, and get extra summoned critters on some spells.)

Another: Necromancer, who could be given some minor bonus to death spells, always has a skeleton by his side.

Great Diviner: A master of divination, he has discovered the secrets to Godhood itself. 10% bonus to all divining spells (Auspex, Dark Knowledge, even Akashic Record), minimum -1 reduction on spell cost.

The Great Warlord: A master of the art of war, his presence inspires armies to greatness. The only thing left to conquer is Godhood. (Give him extra hitpoints and combat skill, make magic paths cost 20 or 30 instead of 10, but he gives _all_ friendly troops +1 morale, attack, and defense when he is on the field of battle. Or all troops get one of those bonuses throughout his empire.)

The Grand Enchanter: Troops created in a province he is in have enchanted weapons (+1 attack + damage, considered magic).

Again, my idea is to give human pretenders thematic bonuses that might actually be useful throughout the game, where right now their "bonuses" are limitted to the start of the game.

For instance : Great Druid's extra Vine Men / Ogres? Possibly useful in the early game, if your fortress is besieged and you can't recruit, so you switch him to summoning Vines. Otherwise, even in the early game, you waste his research by summoning, and late game, vine critters are useless.

Great Sage or Enchantress : The initial research bonus is nice, likewise the astral gem per turn. As the game goes on though, you have enough researchers, enough sources of gems, that the bonus ceases to be relevant.

Some of these are probably unbalanced right now. But, heh! Less unbalanced than the VQs.

[ May 04, 2004, 17:31: Message edited by: Cainehill ]

[Kristoffer O]

Originally posted by SelfishGene:
... as would a 50' tall naked woman with breasts the size of cars.

Are you sure you are playing Dominions ?