Sneak Attack, (an idea based upon Pearl Harbor)

[nerfman]

"2) Like the US ships in the Pearl Harbor attack, what seems like ALL of the Japanese carriers were in fact American supercarriers! Almost all WW2 carriers have long and fairly narrow rectangular flight decks with few irregularities. These ships, on the other hand, have very wide flight decks that taper at the front and back, much like a Nimitz does. I think the only carrier that they got right is USS Hornet."

Many of the attack carriers the Japs used were converted Hulls, so they are even less like what you describe, with pretty much square filght decks and no appreciable superstructure.

As to OHP's and Spru cans - that is horrible. Sounds more like Red Storm rising than Tora Tora Tora to me.

[Atrocities]

quote:

---

Um, the Iowa hadn't been built when Pearl Harbor was bombed. It was the Oklahoma that capsized.

---

Right off, GOOD JOB. That was a test to see if people who would respond KNEW their history. LOL. You pegged it right out of the gate. My hats off to you.

[Atrocities]

quote:

---

$4.50

---

Man your getting a deal on your early showings. Regal is screwing us for %5.75 a show and $9.75 a late show.

[Noble713]

quote:

---

Originally posted by nerfman:
Many of the attack carriers the Japs used were converted Hulls, so they are even less like what you describe, with pretty much square filght decks and no appreciable superstructure.

---

Of the six carriers that participated in the attack (Soryu, Hiryu, Shokaku, Zuikaku, Akagi, Kaga), only 2 were converted from BCs or BBs (Akagi and Kaga). After checking out pics at warships1.com and hazegray.org, the only carrier with a noticeably different flight deck is Akagi, and even it's deck looks too narrow compared to the ships in the movie.

As you said, most Japanese carriers had small superstructures. This wasn't the case in the movie. They had BIG superstructures, like those of a Nimitz...

Oh yeah, and Hiryu and Akagi had port-side islands, and I don't think any ship in the movie did.

If anyone else does go to see this movie, can you try and look for the stuff I've described and confirm it? If there is one thing I hate doing it's giving out erroneous information, so I like to check my information or get a second opinion on things.

[nerfman]

Sorry Noble, I wasn't trying to say you were wrong below, just that the disparity was even more. I didn't mean to say that they didn't have any superstructure, just that is is way scaled back. I thought I remebered reading somewhere that Hiryu and Soryu were originally laid down as liners and then changed mid-way through, although I am not certain now. Either way, just trying to say that they had small superstructures and very "square" flight decks.

[Atrocities]

Ok, I saw the movie again today, and have to admit that there are a lot of TECHNICAL detail holes in this flick. But what the hell do you expect from Bay? After all he's the guy who had a shuttle land on an asteroid, and that shuttle was more like a flying supercarrier.

So ya, the movie does have a ton of things that are not accurate especially the Egis (sp) destroyers made out to look like pre-WWII destroyers.

For this movie, YOU are going to have to suspend the concept of 100% accuracy as IT IS NOT possible to acheive that on a $140,000,000 budget.

All in all, it was still a nice movie to see.

[ZzZ]

O.k.

just a telegram from me.

1.) I'm living in Germany. The movie is not in theatres here yet. So I haven't seen it.

2.) I first wanted to see it because I'm specially interested in the Pearl Harbor incident. I already visited Hawaii and the Arizona Memorial and read lots of books and articles about it. I also know Tora Tora Tora.

3.) Later I decided NOT to see that movie because all major german movie critics called it historically and politically inaccurate.

4.) I personally don't focus on ship designs and stuff like that. I want a true perspective behind the mask of official statements. What is the truth? Today many historians believe that the U.S. government knew about the Pearl Harbor attack before. Some even say Roosevelt provoked the attack on Pearl Harbour to have a reason for the US entering WWII. I don't know yet whether this part is implemented into the movie or if there will only be some nasty yellow Kamikaze pilots, that kill innocent Americans. But I will go and see for myself.

5.) The winner writes history - that's damn true. And war is ugly. But when you look back my personal opinion is that you should stick to historical details as much as you could. Unfortunately Hollywood movies nearly never achieve this.

My greatest disappointment on this was Private Ryan. Did you notice that there was not one afroamerican soldier in the whole movie? And that right after Amistad which has been a financial desaster for Dreamworks and Spielberg in special ... What I read in books says that about 30% of the US forces personell had been afroamerican people. Most of them in the lower rank (cannonfood ... that kind of peole that most Generals would use for a mission like Omaha beach).

An anti-war movie for me should never contain hope and it must show both sides of the fighting forces. Does anyone here know some German anti-war movies ... like Stalingrad, Das Boot (a Wolfgang Petersen film BTW) or Die Brücke (sorry, don't know the english titels)? They are great ... realistic, hopeless, show what everyone would experience when being part of a war ... you would hate it. This is what most Hollywood dierctors never found out ...

ZzZ

[jc173]

quote:

---

Originally posted by ZzZ:
My greatest disappointment on this was Private Ryan. Did you notice that there was not one afroamerican soldier in the whole movie? And that right after Amistad which has been a financial desaster for Dreamworks and Spielberg in special ... What I read in books says that about 30% of the US forces personell had been afroamerican people. Most of them in the lower rank (cannonfood ... that kind of peole that most Generals would use for a mission like Omaha beach).
ZzZ

---

I know this is offtopic, but just a comment. Back in WWII the American military was segregated ie Afro-Americans (and even Japanese Americans to some extent) served in different units from caucasian Americans. You can probably find a listing of such units somewhere. As for the later parts of the movie I don't recall the 101st Airborne (or was it the 82nd in the movie?) having a segregated battalion or regimental combat team at the time. I could be wrong about that though.

[Possum]

ZzZ, let me offer a bit of a reply

The western allies had been unhappy with the japanese since the mid 1930's, chiefly over japanese military expansionism on the chinese mainland.

In about September of 1941, the US, UK, and Netherlands placed a joint oil embargo on the japanese. The japanese had no oil deposits of their own at this time, and were totally dependent on oil imports. Since the US, UK, and Netherlands between them controlled over 90% of the world oil exports at this time, the embargo meant that japanese industrial society could not continue to function any longer than their stockpiles would Last.

Please note that I say "controlled by". Oil was already being exported from the middle east by this time, but it was exclusively under the control of Royal Dutch Shell, British Petroleum, or one of the american oil companies.

The concessions demanded by the allies in return for lifting the oil embargo were considered unacceptably humiliating by the japanese, and so the attack on the western allies was planned and executed.

It is worth noting that admiral Yamamoto considered the attack on Pearl Harbor something of a failure, since none of the american carriers were caught in port.

But yes, oil was the prime japanese goal in launching the second world war. One of their main early goals was seizure of the oilfields of java. I have read that the people of java hated their dutch colonial masters with such passion that they at first willingly helped the japanese. This willing cooperation from the locals enabled the japanese to quickly put captured oil facilities back into production. I have also read that the crude of java was so pure that the IJN were able to pump it straight into their ships and burn it like ships bunker oil. The Last 2 anecdotes are from a book by an IJN submarine captain.

Did Roosevelt expect to be attacked? We'll never know, but if he did not expect it, he was a damned fool.

Please note that none of the above is intended to excuse the behavior of the japanese military in WWII, only to explain it.



[This message has been edited by Possum (edited 29 May 2001).]

[dogscoff]

Atrocities - you recommended this film by comparing it to Thin Red Line, Titanic and Private Ryan. I haven't seen Private Ryan but those others are two of the dullest films I've seen in the Last few years.

I get the feeling that this film is just another historical exploitation from Hollywood, hoping to drag in the dollars with some gung-ho patriotism, empty talk about "historical accuracy" and big explosions.

Sorry, but I'll probably be giving this one a miss.


------------------
"Pinky, are you pondering what I'm pondering?"
"Uh, I think so, Brain, but balancing a family and a career ... oooh, it's all too much for me. "