pan cw : formulas for freespawns/reanimations. quite finished . with guide too

[Boron]

afaik there is no info in the manual about pan cw reanimation .
in a quick forum search i found no information too .

so here my questions :

dom manual page 21 : "the unholy priests of carrion woods reanimate manikins . this reanimation is much more effective inside a friendly dominion than outside ."

that is the whole information about cw in the manual .

pan cw theme needs at least magic 1 + growth 1 .

freespawns seem to be dependant on dominion strenght , growth and magic scale .

how are the formulas for that ?
which freespawns need a temple , castle , lab ?


next part :
reanimation :
the manual says reanimation is more effective inside friendly dominion .
so how is reanimation linked to dominion strenght ?

there are 3 pan unholy summonable priests , with unholy levels of 1 , 2 , 3 .

if it is possible please provide detailed enough info that i can make a chart like the one in the manual for ermor .

this info would be really helpful thnx in advance


afaik pan cw dominion kills 1% population per dominion level / turn .

so according to how many extra freespawns you get / how many more reanimations you get in average for friendly dominion i perhaps have a very good idea for pan cw

[ July 31, 2004, 01:34: Message edited by: Boron ]

[Arralen]

There is info about Carrionwoods somewhere on this forum.
I'll check tonight if I can dig something up from my archive.

Meanwhile, you have to search for yourself - don't have the time too atm.

[Boron]

hm i downloaded the manual addenda from your sig yesterday but haven't found that in your manual addenda liga .
that is exactly what i searched for .

with reanimation though this seems a bit strange because in the dominions manual is written reanimation strongly increases in friendly dominion .

[Boron]

Originally posted by liga:



Reanimation:

Number: Priestlvl/2+(1D2-1)
Quality 10%

that seems strange :

my most powerful priest is the carrion lord :
so he would have priest level/2 = 1,5 .
rounded up in flavour of player .

that would be only 1-3 reanimations / turn ?
and for carrion lady / centaur only 0-2 ?

[Boron]

ok i had a faerun sp game left which i don't want to continue :
so i did some testing there :
my results are surprising :

i had dominion strenghts 8 , growth 1 , the testing province was a wood and unburied corpses there .

i had 11 lvl 3 unholy reanimators in that province too .


after ligas formulas as far as i understood them the following should be :

because of unburied corpses :
10x(8+1+1) % chance = 100% chance for a d10 roll
that means 1-10 freespawns
because of forest location the same , again 1-10 freespawns .

from reanimation :
2 variants :
lvl 3 priest/2 = 1,5

variant 1 :
rounded up to 2 :
2+(1d2-1) = 2-3 summons per reanimation
variant 2 :
rounded down to 1 :
1+(1d2-1)= 1-2 summons per reanimation


so i should get according to ligas formulas :
variant 1 : 24-53 new creatures in the province
variant 2 : 13-42 new creatures in the province


now what i did get was the following :
i did 6 turns and each turn i got exactly 35 new creatures .
it is in ligas formulas ranges but because the range is exactly 29 figures .
there are many possible outcomes , at least more than 1000 , probably much more .
now the important point though :
the exact outcome of 35 has something like a 5-10% probability at maximum .
even if it would be 10% probability my outcome of 35 for 6 following turns would have the following probability because the turns are independent :

6
(0,1) = 0.0001 %

so the formula seems incorrect .

i have found a very simple formula for myself now which fits very well with the outcome :


creatures per reanimation : simply unholy priest level
1x[10(dominionstrenghts+growth+1)] % chance for 1 freespawn because of forest

1x[10(dominionstrenghts+growth+1)] % chance for 1 freespawn because of unburied corpses .


so far the result is : 11x3 creatures through reanimation + 1 for forest + 1 because of unburied corpses = 35 .

[ July 30, 2004, 16:00: Message edited by: Boron ]

[Boron]

Originally posted by Boron:

6
(0,1) = 0.0001 %

this should mean to the power of 6 ,so 0,1x0,1x0,1x0,1x0,1x0,1 .

unfortunately the forum seems to override my format there and i have no clue how to include such formulas .

ok i could have written [(0,1)²]³ because that is the power of 6 but it is quite unreadable .

[liga]

Originally posted by Boron:

after ligas formulas as far as i understood them the following should be :

was a Kristoffer O. post ... I never played CW so I haven't test it ...

creatures per reanimation : simply unholy priest level
1x[10(dominionstrenghts+growth+1)] % chance for 1 freespawn because of forest

1x[10(dominionstrenghts+growth+1)] % chance for 1 freespawn because of unburied corpses .

I would like to include your formula in my next release ... It seems to me more close to what the other reanimations do (no random, but just a fixed amount dependent on priest level) ... have you also tryed with priests with different levels ?

thank you
Liga

Ps. concerning the formula ... the must be in the Carrin Woods section in the appendix (A.4.5) ... probably is not the right place to put ... I'll try to move that in a better location in the next realease

[ July 30, 2004, 16:23: Message edited by: liga ]

[Boron]

my formula seems correct .
i now conquered 2 forest provinces in a quick testgame .
i build in each a castle + temple .
when i had low dominion i either got 0 or 1 freespawn .
when the temple was finished i got 1 - 2 .
then with high dominion for 100% i got 2 not more not less .

so first conclusions out of that :
pan cw could try a very low dominion to get a quite high income because freespawns via dominion are quite low .
so just summon one carrion lord everytime you have 25 nature gems .
he can reanimate or research and is a good combat magepriest because of his high undead leadership + high hp .

so you could really try a ridiculous dominion strengths of 3-4 and quick expand and try to outrun your dominion .
this way you should still get in midgame a nice amount of undeads through reanimation and will have a modest income in the dominions where you outrunned your dominion .
this is still bad but you will get more money than ermor .
so you can mix a few minotaurs or something like that in your undead armies .
so far that sounds quite interesting .

[Boron]

ok further testing :

once you reach more than 100% after ligas formula the number of freespawns is really simple :

i had one province , no wood , unburied corpses , result >100% after liga's formula , or my simpler one : 10x(dominionstrenghts+growth+1) %.

1 carrion centaur reanimated .
i got 2 units each turn , as exepted .


one province with wood , unburied corpses , result >100% after liga's formula or my simple one .
1 carrion lord reanimating .
i got 5 units each turn .


so once you have high dominion (>100% after the formula) you always get the after my simple guides posted units :
1 autospawn per turn in woods
1 autospawn per turn for unburied corpses
1 unit per reanimating unholy priest level


in low dominion you simply have smaller odds .
interesting : you still can reanimate in enemy dominion , but there you don't always get the maximum result , more likely a random value of the range of 0-max unholy priest level .
so e.g. for a carrion lord 0-3 per turn .

i think the percentage formula from liga is correct .
so far i think my results are enough info .


if you would like you could await confirmation from developers if really wanted or include it asap in your manual addenda .
if you just mention my name in that chapter is enough for me hehe .
makes me proud being able to say i have made a small part in your excellent manual addendum too .

if you want i could check your whole manual addenda and suggest small bugfixes on some small parts and send them to you then like with facts were you said "i think" but which are certified meanwhile by the developers like i did with some small parts already before in this thread .

i just need to know if the manual in your sig is the latest Version and if you wish that .

[ July 30, 2004, 17:03: Message edited by: Boron ]

[Boron]

the most interesting info form my testing is :
for reanimations pan cw is extremely simple minded .
you just need to summon carrion lords and totally ignore carrion centaurs + carrion ladies . they have a lower RoI at least in one area :

code:

---

         costs  max reanimations/month    rp 

centaur    10N             1              0

lady       16N             2              3/4/6

lord       25N             3              5/6/8

---

code:

---

            leadership (c,u,m)   magic     hp

centaur        10/35/10             U      24

lady           10/45/5             NUU     15

lord           10/80/15           NNNUUU   53

---

legend : leadership : c = common = normal troops
u = unholy
m = magic
max reanimations/month = unholy priestlevel too
rp = research points . i wrote 3/4/6 and 5/6/8 because you are forced to take at least magic 1 with carrion woods . so base rp for lady + lord are 3 / 5 , 4 / 6 are their rp at magic 1 and 6 / 8 at magic 3 scale .

so while the carrion ladies have give the same roi on research + reanimation ( negligible better : 3 reanimation / 6 research for 24 nature gems compared to 25 for the carrion lord ) their physical fragility makes them worthless compared to the carrion lords.

you need nothing else than carrion lords . they are the best leaders for your hordes too ( can cast puppet mastery ) . their high hps , recuperation and "undeadness" which gives them poison immunity make them unkillable by unequipped assasins early game . because of recuperation they are immune against seeking arrow too and if they got a chest wound it well be gone soon thnx to recuperation .
they have mr of 18 so they are hard to kill by soul slay etc. , anything with mr saves .
this high mr makes it very unlikely that they decay by a bane spider assasin hit . so even these machaka assasins can't kill them unequipped .

if you give them 5 carrion beast guards and script them they are even unequipped unkillable by every expect the most high end equipped assasins .

i am no expert with province target spells but afaik evo 9 flames from the sky is the strongest killer spell .
iirc i read in an old thread that there a damage throw is done too .
if that's true you would need several flames from the sky at once to kill totally unequipped carrion lords .


so a basic pan strat is really simple minded . each time you can afford summon a new carrion lord .
given the many points you get by pretender design you can either make a strong vq or an almost as strong rainbow as ermor .
if you sitesearch with that one you will have a moderate gem income , something a low top 5-8 ranking . simply put every nature gem in carrion lords .
research is a problem i strongly recommend taking magic 3 . you still will be always one of the Last 3 in research rankings for a long time .
nothing to worry about because you are the least research dependant nation in the whole game .
if you go in late early / early midgame on conjuration 6 you get spectres .

you don't need to worry about sc's as much as other races . with a critical mass of mandragoras / carrion beasts you can take out almost every early-midgame sc .
against pretender sc's use carrion beasts + your own pretender .

you still have to worry about banishment / undead mass desctruction spells but not as bad as ae ermor . while almost every ashen ae ermor fodder freespawn even dies on a single banishment you have 2 advantages :
-puppet mastery increases the ap of most of your carrions ( mr negates iirc ) and some of them are already quick . so positioned foremost the quick ones will reach enemy in first round and the great mass in second round .

-a few of your freespawns/reanimations are undead carrion elephants . they are like free behemoth and have almost the same stats , only slightly weaker .
they are size 6 tramplers . because they are undead they have so high morale that they never rout . if you don't fight sc's but hordes of enemy mages you could place several small squads of them foremost . hopefully they attract most undead mass destruction spells and your other carrion beasts can reach the front quite unharmed .
with 94 hp they should survive about 5 wither bones . hopefully then combat is finished victoriously for you already .

mid - late game you can include in your main armies sc-crippler banelords and the like .
i haven't tested this so far but i think it will work quite fine .

so pan cw is very strong but it needs to be left alone in early game .

against norfleets drive by seraphine strat you almost can't protect when on the offensive early-midgame
so try to Nap with caelum early game and backstab later

main weaknesses of pan cw are :
-slowest research at least early - midgame
-similiar to ermor but a bit more moderate : gold shortage
-very hard to get blood because of killer dominion and slowest research of all nations
-no easy access to clams if you don't find indy w2+ mages . then spectres are most probably your best deal for that .
-bad very lategame race on maps >200 provinces because of the hard access to blood / clams and because of hard access to astral mages . so while you are on the advance no protection for your army against flames from the sky , mass ghostriders and the like . so others can teleport/astral level in while you almost can't do that .

conclusion : pan cw is the second undead race , has worse research than ermor but on the other hand doesn't share some of ermor's weaknesses ( gold shortage , death gem shortage , AE : fragile freespawns/reanimations , no vq , easy to kill through early rush ) . perhaps not the most competetive , but very straightforward nation . expect on faerun and other 300+ province maps you have good winning chances .
i like 2 things most with them : the carrion lords and their undead status . no need to worry about bad events ( 50% pop killed ) or about being ermors earlygame neighbor .
with your sc pretender and your carrion beasts you should be able to give some others a surprise (expect extreme experts like norfleet / graeme dice / stormbinder etc. ) .

[ July 30, 2004, 22:56: Message edited by: Boron ]