PBW PvK Proportions Game #2

[PvK]

Thanks - those two do look like typos. What I get for rushing.

I don't have ICQ where I am at the moment.

I will be changing the homeworld CC to something in the neighborhood of what you suggested. My Last guess was HW CC would provide 1000 research and a 10x research multiplier. By my math, trying to take what SE4 actually does into account (assuming happy and later jubilent happiness, and use of a system computer complex eventually), this gives about 21000 research to start with, and has the potential to grow to about 106640 if you filled your whole homeworld with Research Megaplex III's. With only half-filled, research would be about 61070. I may tweak that a bit, though.

As for the other values you listed, they are pretty close to what currently exists.

The spaceport cities costs and abilities are more or less the same as their corresponsing city... plus a spaceport and resupply depot. I give them a minor side-effect boost on research, but I don't see why their research bonus should any better than the same size city, plus a point or two.

I'm also not sure why a city would provide an intel multiplier. It seems to me like a civilian community presents intel challenges as much or as or more than it would help. Did you have a rationale in mind for that?

PvK

[PvK]

Ok, I think I've found good values for the homeworld research:

Cultural Center research multiplier x 10
Cultural Center research generation 1000 (x 10)

This gives a starting research base of 21000.

If half the remaining (medium) homeworld slots are devoted to research Megacomplex III's, this gives a research generation of about 61000. If you fill the HW with research megaplex III's, the generation base reaches about 107,000, but of course at a huge cost in resources and lost income.

This potential is offset by reduced trade value compared to 2.5 (20% -> 10%), the resource sacrifice, the increased research costs in 3.0, and now, tweaked research and construction costs for the megaplexes.

My impression is this is about right. Let me know if this seems off to anyone.

I'm not so certain what to do about the mineral generation. My inclination is to leave it at 30x, or maybe drop it to 20-25x. At 30x, you start at about 45-50K mins, and can increase that eventually to about 200K without concentrating homeworld slots, or go up to about 500K if you dump everything else and fill up on Min Mine Megaplex III's.

Seems ok to me. But again, if this seems off, speak now.

I am thinking though that these multipliers will mean we don't need to double the resource values of planets, as we'd discussed earlier in this thread.

PvK

[Fyron]

(Actually, it looks to me like SE4 is also doing some slightly weird math with the modifiers, but that's not that important. Mainly, I just hadn't done all the math to check the final numbers I had in.)

Not sure if this is it, but a system percent modifier ability stacks with a planet percent modifier ability. If you build a stock game robotoid factory III and system robotoid factory III, you do not get an overall 60% bonus, but instead a 69% bonus.

[csebal]

Well, in my mind, the multiplier and increased stats of the colonial facilities represent the many offices and labs helped by the well devleoped infrastructure.

It would seem odd that a homeworld would have lots of research labs, but not a single intelligence agency office anywhere, thats why it seems reasonable to have intel bonus as well.

Not to mention game balance, as those who focus on intel could also benefit from these buildings then, not only those who focus on research.

About that list of modifiers, and generally the colonial facilities:
I think there should be a bigger difference between spaceport Versions and normal ones, plus i have my concerns about the high end colonial facilities.

See, i know its about proportions, but is there actually anyone, who ever built a colony cultural center?

Even arcologies cost at least about 8 years (77 turns), considering you have a 4500 organics and radioactive build rate, which at this moment you'll only get on a full medium planet, with jubilant morale and the highest level temporal spaceyard.

The next highest building, a colony world cultural center would take 533 turns at the same build rate.

Well, i may be wrong, but i dont see the point of having it so high.

Its unlikely likely that i'll ever have just 100 turns to spare, not to mention 533.

I really think, the construction costs should be reworked so that the most expensive building you want players to build can fit into say 100-150 turns considering the highest tech level construction equipment and the best moral/population bonuses (on normal planets).

Other building costs could then be modified to match that.

Well, thats what i think at least.

[Hippocrates]

Hey PvK,

I like the starting base numbers, but I feel that the higher end numbers you mentioned may be a bit high. Under 2.5 using a computer complex III, robotoid factory III, and system facilities III, the HW would cap out at about 95-100k mineral production and 45k research. These numbers werer large enough to make the homeworld the singlemost vuluable planet in any empire. By increasig these numbers to the potential described above, HW's would now eclipse any colony world, and would be quite capable of standing on their own.

I'm kind of grogy right now - can't think of a good arguement. However, I like proportions for its "epic" feel - slow construction, looooong research times, etc. A homeworld as powerful as you describe just seems a bit off to me.

Thanks,
-Hippo

[csebal]

Do not forget, that the colony worlds now also get a nice research / mining boost from cities / metropolises and the like.

So one arcology on a planet gives a 200% research rate bonus, effectively resulting in 3x the normal research that planet would give.

Well, taking a closer look at it, you will probably not have that many arcologies, because of the time it takes to build them, but the potential is there.

[Fyron]

The next highest building, a colony world cultural center would take 533 turns at the same build rate.

Actually, I am pretty sure PvK removed those from being feasible in an earlier Version, but left them in to maintain savegame compatibility. They are not meant to be built normally any longer, so they have the same build cost as the normal cultural centers.

[Ed Kolis]

So I suppose the CWCC's can be safely taken out now, as the 2.X savegames won't be compatible with the new 3.X savegames?

[Hippocrates]

Hey csebal,

That's partly the point - I liked the slower pace
I always felt that the stock game allowed or the generation of too many minerals and reserach points too quickly. I'm just pointing out that I hope the new values don't "speed things up" a manner drasticaly faster than 2.5 (I found the pacing there exquisite).

-Hippo

[csebal]

Well, i like the slower pace as well, but i dont see a point in having anything in the game that costs 200+ turns to build, even with the highest tech available.

I just mentioned, that there is a reasonable timeframe for constructing buildings, and they should all fit into that timeframe using the tech level players will most probably have by the time they are supposed to use the building.

See, if a metropolis takes 50 turns to build with top level construction facilities, then and i dont think many will build it, not to mention, that by the time you'll have that top level construction stuff, you could/should care about arcologies instead.

So lets make it clear, i dont want to make things build in a turn or a year, but i dont see a point in having my facility list cluttered with stuff, that takes so long, se5 comes out by the time it gets even near completion.

Thats my point.
Then again, there are two other aspects:
- First, i realize that im just one of the many Users of this mod, so my opinion weights little on the global scale.
- Then there is the 2nd Proportions game on PBW, which i would really like to begin ASAP, so it may not be the time to make ground breaking changes to the mod.

Lets just say, i keep throwing up ideas and comments like this hoping, that they help to make the mod better. Arguing about it can make the mod better as well, as it gives PvK more opinions to base his choices on.

Thats it on my side.